[Deck] Dredge

[Anusien]

Which is better, Cephalid Coliseum or Breakthrough/Careful Study?

Does the answer change if you have LED in your deck or not?

[NecroYawgmoth]

Also, congrats on the finish. I am, however, not a fan of running only twelve lands - four of which that do not produce Red mana for Looting or Black mana for Putrid Imp. That can create some incredibly awkward scenarios with off-colored land-spell hands to start the game.

Additionally, two Breakthrough main seems a bit light. Game one you're going straight combo and you ideally want to be able to blow the game wide open as soon as possible. By trimming back on the number of Breakthroughs, you're essentially putting more weight on your basic filter spells to do most of the work for you, thus making you mulligan even more aggressively to find a land to fit the color cost of the spell intended to be cast (because you're only running twelve lands, this makes it even harder).

This is the same I felt. That's the reason why I want more Rainbowlands & Breakthroughs in the main. I'll try cutting 2,3,4 PImps the next days and let you know how it worked out.

[blindspotxxx]

Does 12 lands really work? I personally run 13 and if I could fit in a 14th land I would. I'm using Ando's exact list. Quad Lazer aims for consistency but it only runs 12 lands which makes it ironically less consistent. Recently Adria Romero is using 13 lands now, In my opinion 13 lands is the way to go.

I see a lot of lists cutting out Firestorm completely, I'm starting to realize this and I hardly side in Firestorm. Aggro seems to be a dead deck now. Any thoughts on 2 Ancient Grudge for 2 Firestorms?

I'm also running 3 Chain of Vapors which used to be Nature's Claim. The reason is reanimator is big in the Philippines and Chain of Vapor can bounce Scavenging Ooze while Nature's Claim can only hit artifacts and enchantments.

Which is better, Cephalid Coliseum or Breakthrough/Careful Study?

Does the answer change if you have LED in your deck or not?

Cephalid is a must in the deck :) Really depends on your composition and intention. You need to run all 3 actually, are you asking because you want to cut a one of the sets of these cards? If you're a Flayer or an all in combo type 4 Breakthroughs are really needed to increase the chances of your broken draw.

[jares]

Does 12 lands really work? I personally run 13 and if I could fit in a 14th land I would. I'm using Ando's exact list. Quad Lazer aims for consistency but it only runs 12 lands which makes it ironically less consistent. Recently Adria Romero is using 13 lands now, In my opinion 13 lands is the way to go.

I see a lot of lists cutting out Firestorm completely, I'm starting to realize this and I hardly side in Firestorm. Aggro seems to be a dead deck now. Any thoughts on 2 Ancient Grudge for 2 Firestorms?

I'm also running 3 Chain of Vapors which used to be Nature's Claim. The reason is reanimator is big in the Philippines and Chain of Vapor can bounce Scavenging Ooze while Nature's Claim can only hit artifacts and enchantments.




Cephalid is a must in the deck :) Really depends on your composition and intention. You need to run all 3 actually, are you asking because you want to cut a one of the sets of these cards? If you're a Flayer or an all in combo type 4 Breakthroughs are really needed to increase the chances of your broken draw.

To add to that, it's worth noting that Cephalid Coliseum (land/Draw/discard) and Careful Study (draw/discard) are both able to facilitate at least two important functions for Dredge. Breakthrough can also sometimes serve as a discard outlet (while being our main draw spell), but it's significantly much less reliable in that function (which is probably also why it's the card that gets boarded-out most of the time). I really like these cards that are able to serve multiple purposes (Faithless Looting and Putrid Imp can be added to that list), as these components significantly increase the reliability and consistency of the deck.

Cheers,
jares

[Gui]

To add to that, it's worth noting that Cephalid Coliseum (land/Draw/discard) and Careful Study (draw/discard) are both able to facilitate at least two important functions for Dredge.

Cephalid Coliseum is not a reliable discard outlet, although being a land and a draw spell makes it worth running already.

[Anusien]

Let's get specific. Here is Ando's Top8 decklist from GP Indy:

1 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Ichorid
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp

3 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
4 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

Is Careful Study #4 or Cephalid Coliseum #4 better? Why?

[Klazam]

I can answer that. The Coliseum is better due to the land amount. The extra Careful Study is nice, but not so nice if you cant cast it.

Cephalid Coliseum is both a land and a spell. Its good in more situations than the Careful Study.


BTW, how's my list performing for you so far, Blindspotxxx?

[joemauer]

Let's get specific. Here is Ando's Top8 decklist from GP Indy:

Is Careful Study #4 or Cephalid Coliseum #4 better? Why?

Cephalid Coliseum is better just because this deck could use as many lands as possible. While being a land, it still let's us go off(usually uncounterable) with any other discard outlet. So it is a land that doesn't lower our spell count.

Edit: klazam beat me to it.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Am I the only one who thinks that
a 1 Mana discard OR draw [depending on situation]which can be cast with every land is better than
a land that can't cast all the spells in the deck, and is a 2nd turn drawspell...

IMO Study > Coliseum

Play 8.

[Michael Keller]

You really want to max out on Careful Study and Cephalid Coliseum. There really is nothing more to it in regards to that. Those cards have incredible synergy with the rest of the deck, which is actually quite scary.

[jares]

Cephalid Coliseum is not a reliable discard outlet, although being a land and a draw spell makes it worth running already.

Most certainly agreed! I got carried away there.

Cheers,
jares

[jares]

I can answer that. The Coliseum is better due to the land amount. The extra Careful Study is nice, but not so nice if you cant cast it.

Cephalid Coliseum is both a land and a spell. Its good in more situations than the Careful Study.


BTW, how's my list performing for you so far, Blindspotxxx?

Cephalid Coliseum is better just because this deck could use as many lands as possible. While being a land, it still let's us go off(usually uncounterable) with any other discard outlet. So it is a land that doesn't lower our spell count.

Edit: klazam beat me to it.

I also agree, for the reasons that I've stated above. Also, I would prefer running the 4th Careful Study over the 4th Breakthrough for the same reasons.

I hope that helps.

Cheers,
jares

[Digital Devil]

So I just bought 4x Firestorm and wanted to sneak 'em into my non-LED build. Main problem is I cannot decide whether I want to play 4x Ichorid or maindeck Iona + 1x Ichorid in my sideboard. List is as follows:

LANDS

4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
2x Tarnished Citadel

CREATURES

4x Tireless Tribe
4x Putrid Imp
4x Narcomoeba
4x Ichorid
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug

SPELLS

4x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Breakthrough
4x Careful Study
2x Dread Return
1x Darkblast

SIDEBOARD

4x Chain of Vapor
4x Ancient Grudge
4x Firestorm
1x Ray of Revelation
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Angel of Despair

[jares]

Am I the only one who thinks that
a 1 Mana discard OR draw [depending on situation]which can be cast with every land is better than
a land that can't cast all the spells in the deck, and is a 2nd turn drawspell...

IMO Study > Coliseum

Play 8.

I would tend to generally agree with your points, but given the land-light configuration in question, it's difficult for me to be comfortable with running as few as 12 lands (or even 13 for that matter! ).

Hollywood probably said it best - we would surely benefit the most from running the full set of both of these cards.

Cheers,
jares

[NecroYawgmoth]

@Digital Devil: I think you should exchange Tireless Tribe for Faithless Looting. Other than that the list looks good.

Study was always the swiss army knife of dredge, there is no reason not to play 8.

I dislike the Sideboard, but sideboards are always meta-dependant, so it's ok I guess.

I would tend to generally agree with your points, but given the land-light configuration in question, it's difficult for me to be comfortable with running as few as 12 lands (or even 13 for that matter! ).

Hollywood probably said it best - we would surely benefit the most from running the full set of both of these cards.

Cheers,
jares

Cut Imps, play Lands. =D

[blindspotxxx]

I can answer that. The Coliseum is better due to the land amount. The extra Careful Study is nice, but not so nice if you cant cast it.

Cephalid Coliseum is both a land and a spell. Its good in more situations than the Careful Study.


BTW, how's my list performing for you so far, Blindspotxxx?

It has been performing great but lately I can't seem to get the God Draw turn 1 Goldfish for the past 2 Events I've been to, it was wild on it's debut having 4 turn 1 kills i think lol

1st debut in a small tournament it made me get 1st place. 4 Rounds went 3-0-1. Beat Ant, Mono Red Sneak Attack with Through the Breach and Sneak/Show. Tied with Maverick

2nd event got a 2-2 Record. Won against Mono Red Sneak Attack, White Weenie with Equipments and Artifacts, Lost against Thopter Sword Counter Top and Lost against Rug Delver.

3rd event went 3-1-0 got to 3rd place Beat White Weenie with Vials and Equipment, Beat Pox, Beat Mono Red Sneak Attack and lost to UW Stoneblade national player.

3rd event went 2-2 due to being late for the tournament. Lost to UW stoneblade the national player here in our country, Beat Maverick, Got a Bye and Lost to Maverick for not showing up lol

4th event went 3-0-1 at the qualifier for a bye for the major tournament here in the Philippines held last April 22, 2012. Didn't get the bye due to matchups but was the same score with 1st place. Beat RUG Delver (Dice roll due to draw and he gave me the match), UW Stoneblade, BW Stoneblade and draw with Maverick.

5th event went 2-2-1 Beat Sneak Show, Lost the Mirror at the rubber match (LEDless), Draw with ANT, Lost to Combo Elves Team mate, and beat another deck I can't remember.

6th event Major Legacy last April 22, 2012, 7 rounds. Went 4-2-1. 1 win shy of top 8. Lost to burn (team mate with lucky top deck on game 3), Draw with Slivers, Lost to Esper Stoneblade, Beat Nic Fit, Beat Mud Variant, Beat Reanimator, Beat Dead Guy Ale.

Overall I'm satisfied but I'm retweaking the sideboard. I think I'll make a mini-report soon.

[Final Fortune]

Why are you guys comparing Careful Study to Cephalid Coliseum when you could compare Careful Study to Breakthrough, it really doesn't make sense to cut either Careful Study or Cephalid Coliseum because Careful Study is an enabler for Cephalid Coliseum in a number of situations where Breakthrough is not.

[Izor]

Why even talk about any of the draw effects. Play all 16 and cut some of the unnecessary DRs and DR targets, if you really need room. Period.

All explosiveness of this deck is based on cards that fulfil more than just one of the four roles (mana production, dredger, discard outlet, draw effect). This is why for LED lists, I'll start with 4 Study, 4 LED, 4 Looting, 4 BT, 4 Coliseum, 4 CT and go from there. In LED Dredge, I'd certainly start cutting the Putrid Imps before cutting any of the cards I just mentioned.

[GoldenCid]

Got 1st at the Altar of Alters Legacy tournament in Northern Virginia. Report is up here!

Very Congrats!! Good job!
I have some questions for you because looking at your list there are some things that remains in darkness to me:

-Why do you invest so many "study effects" if you have not FKZ as autowin? I mean, you can go all in with leds, coliseum and breakthough plus study and loothing why wait?
Personally i like running eternal witness to warrant going off in the turn i crack led.

-Coffin purge is you double surgical plan?

-In what cases do you side the 4th breakthrough in?

-supposing that ichorid beatdown is your main way to win, why just 3?

If you think that answering this questions is redundant for the topic please pm me.

[blindspotxxx]

Very Congrats!! Good job!
I have some questions for you because looking at your list there are some things that remains in darkness to me:

-Why do you invest so many "study effects" if you have not FKZ as autowin? I mean, you can go all in with leds, coliseum and breakthough plus study and loothing why wait?
Personally i like running eternal witness to warrant going off in the turn i crack led.

-Coffin purge is you double surgical plan?

-In what cases do you side the 4th breakthrough in?

-supposing that ichorid beatdown is your main way to win, why just 3?

If you think that answering this questions is redundant for the topic please pm me.

Run Sun Titan over Eternal Witness :) I think we can safely say that Sun Titan > Eternal Witness anyway. Flamekin and Flayer needs a very very healthy Graveyard and Dredge. There are times when you don't hit narcos or bridges while you get the combo of 3 Dread Returns and the DR target. To each his own I guess, I personally run Flayer. And Flayer > Flamekin Honestly. You can still win even if your opponent has a lot of blockers already. The 4th Ichorid was cut in Quad for the 13th land or the single DR.

Why even talk about any of the draw effects. Play all 16 and cut some of the unnecessary DRs and DR targets, if you really need room. Period.

All explosiveness of this deck is based on cards that fulfil more than just one of the four roles (mana production, dredger, discard outlet, draw effect). This is why for LED lists, I'll start with 4 Study, 4 LED, 4 Looting, 4 BT, 4 Coliseum, 4 CT and go from there. In LED Dredge, I'd certainly start cutting the Putrid Imps before cutting any of the cards I just mentioned.

Why are you guys comparing Careful Study to Cephalid Coliseum when you could compare Careful Study to Breakthrough, it really doesn't make sense to cut either Careful Study or Cephalid Coliseum because Careful Study is an enabler for Cephalid Coliseum in a number of situations where Breakthrough is not.

Yep I agree with all the above, It's a choice between Breakthrough and Careful Study. And Cephalid Coliseums should not even be a choice. The only thing that can replace Cephalid is a rainbow land. If only I can fit 16 lands and all of the goodies I would do it. Funny thing was last February 19 a Dredge Player made it on one of our majors. His list is LEDless and he uses 16 Lands.

Here is the List:

DREGE (Daniel Saracin)

Creatures
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp


4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 faithless looting

4 Bridge from Below

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 tarnished citadel

Sideboard:
2 chain of vapor
3 firestorm
2 dread return
1 flame kin zealot
1 iona shield of emeria
4 faerie macabre
2 nature’s claim

The List I think goes for the most overall consistency with no LED. What do you guys think? When I simulate this in Cockatrice it seems to keep a lot of it's hands.