I can totally see your point, while having experienced the same situations. The problem is that most goblin cards are not even close to be broken. (What most of the rest of the format seems to be playing.) And especially our artifact hate is bad-people have complained here a lot about a better hate card for goblins and have been giving suggestions. I have to mention that playing red should not be a problem with artifacts, instead there is no reasonable answer in goblin form.Originally Posted by GoboLord
The major problem is of course that this hate has no instand speed. But let's start at a different point: I tested cavern and TSH and was positively surpirsed to its effectiveness and speed, since he can be cast from turn 2 and on, maybe because I don't own taiga to know better. Still he'll never be cast by vial, but even in games without artifacts he has 2 power and can hit and chump block.
Tuktuk instead is really slow with vial being on four means it's at least turn 5. And I'm very tired of hardcasting such an answer, while my opponent put another threat on the table. I also dislike to activate my vial to bring tuktuk in play and get a vendillion clique flashed in to take him away. The point of damage he does is irrelevant and no one in this format play a 2/2 body for 4 cc without something like "your opponent looses half of his life" or "you win the game".
The problem on the other side is, as you said, that we already changed Bolt to tarfire for SFM, which you don't always have and maybe you can't answer MoR and SFM on turn 1-2. And since we can't prevent SFM cip effect, we're forced to kill every creature they drop, 'cause even a small 0/1 dude with exalted gets scary when equipped with jitte. Another problem is that a GSZ results usually in an Ooze or Knight that is so big you can't handle them. In that case only Warren Weirding might take care, but I'm not sure if I want to play 3-4 of that.
Therefore I would suggest a third way that gobbolord did not consider: Play around Jitte and Batterscull with Skrik Prosepcter, Mogg Fanatic, SGC and at the very last solution declare block and burn your own guys with gempalm, tarfire or pyrokinesis.
I would like to have a list that combines 7-12 removal, 1 MD artifact hate (TSH with cavern of souls) and let's call 'em the "sac goblins". I start thinking about that and post a list if I have it.
Gobbos: Kings of flavortext!
Im trying to focus on removal since Cawblade with MM was around (see old posts), but sadly, this doesnt help.
Swords, Jitte and Skull are way to effective against us. If we cant immediatly burn that 2nd turn SFM the game is almost over and even if we can, every little creature the opponent is casting is a thread we cant handle. With cards like Lingering Souls the spot removal doesnt help. We need maindeck artifact solutions. And we absolutely need better goblinhate than Tuktuk or TSH.
Sorry but I highly doubt that. I just said that TSH is NOT a solution for the SFM+Equip-package. (well he is just as good as a solution for them as Hindering Touch is for Storm-Combo)
Let me say it in more extreme words: Tuktuk and TSH must not be a point of discussion if you worry about SFM. We MUST play more removal in MD and totally force them into defense with fast setups. We must not react, but agressively charge for the win. If we keep removing their creature (one each turn) then we don't give them time and mana to cast + attach their equipments. I know, this might sound easier than it actually is, but we can't let the game last longer than 5 turns. We must win before that. Remind that when making mulligan decisions. Against Maverick and Stoneblade I'd go as follows:
* make sure you have an early Vial
* use your mana to remove their creatures and Waste their lands ( in short: disrupt their setup)
And:
* play Sulfuric Vortex in your SB. This card does everything (see my report last page) it blocks grove of burnwillo's lifegain (no recurring Punishing fire for them) and it downgrades Batterskull to a clumsy 4/4 -artifact creature.
I'd even dare to say that we don't need artifact hate at all (since its so inflexible).
//EDIT: What you said about block + sac creatures (Skirk Prospector/Fanatic/SIege-Gang) is absolutely correct! However I did consider this, since my 22th land has transformed into a SKirk Prospector lately. I'm still not a fan of Mogg Fanatic.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
I agree with most of your points here Gobolord...but I would like to add my own experience to the discussion.
I've been a big proponent of Tarfire in the current metagame as an answer to SFM. Against incompetent players, Tarfire is all you need - you shock the Mystic and strand the Batterskull they just fetched in their hand. I love seeing Mystic-->Batterskull as that is so much easier to deal with.
However a competent player won't fetch Batterskull with their first Mystic, they'll fetch Jitte. Regardless of Mystic's 2nd ability, Jitte costs them 2 mana to cast. So by killing Mystic all we do is remove a potential Jitte carrier. The problem here is that it's pretty rare to be sitting across from a G/W player that only has a Mystic on the table. This presents an interesting problem - if I'm holding one removal spell to his two creatures, he's still going to be able to equip the Jitte and swing the following turn.
You also have to take Mother of Runes into account here. If our plan is to respond to the equip with burn and our opponent is rocking out with Mom in play, that Jitte is getting equipped. Further, we're going to get hit with it. Mom can't protect artifacts from removal.
Against U/W, removal is all we need. I definitely agree there. Against G/W though...there are more issues than just killing Mystic.
For the Cavern of Souls debate: I disagree with the "it opens the deck to Wasteland" argument. Yes, the current face-stomping aggro version plays mountains almost exclusively. However, there was a time not all that long ago when our mana base looked like this:
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
14x Mountain
We were more open to Wasteland then too, and we were a deck to beat. I'm not sure that 4x Cavern of Souls is correct...but I don't think 2 or 3 would be detrimental to our game plan. If anything it might help to improve the U/W and U/W/b match ups. I do think that running Cavern AND trying to be R/B is a bit of a stretch on the mana base, but as mono-red I think this is definitely something we should test.
This my friend is very good idea. With this combination (prospector, fanatic) it will be also good to play 1 Sharshooter in the maindeck and additional 1 in the sideboard. Thats should give'em (those pesky esper blades and mavericks) hard times.
@Cavern of Souls: It's awesome. Not because it makes Lackey T1 uncounterable, but because make Ringleader/SGC t4/5 uncounterable. That simple.
@Playing more removal and no TSH/TUKTUK MD: It could be an interesting move, but some months ago. At least in my meta, there are quite a lot of EsperBlade, and almost none UW. That means Lingering Souls. It is almost impossible to deal with all creatures of: Stoneforge T2, Lingering T3, Flashback Lingering + Jitte T4. Sometimes it is feasible, however, to just kill the token when it attacks, or attempt to blocks while equipped. Against GW, not so much. They have big guys, whereas Esper don't.
Well, since the subject is overloading with removal, and some talk about facing Puninshing Fire, why don't we just play the monster ourselves, and get it done with?
Pros:
Recurrable removal is Awesome with Vial and Lackey.
2 Dmg kills almost everything out there.
People may bring Grave-hate against us, which could be awesome (because it sucks).
Let you play an awesome control role.
Makes splashing G more easily.
It's better when the opponent wants to discard your removal spell.
Cons:
Non-Goblin.
Nets them some life (irrelevant in my testing so far, even 6+ life).
We play more non-basics.
We still need to play 1cc removal because of Mom.
You can't play Sulfuric Vortex on the SB.
I don't know...
Well, with that, the list I'm working on:
Punishing Goblins!
4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
2 Taiga
4 Fetchland
4 Grove of Burnwillows
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Tarfire
3 Mogg Fanatic
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger
4 Punishing Fire
1 Tin-Street Hooligan
SB:
2 Pyroblast
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Nature's Claim
22 lands with 30 goblins total. 13 removal + Shooter+1Tin-Street.
It this wrecks agroo decks like I think it does, SB with lots of combo and grave hate is feasible.
Well, what do you think about this?
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
C'mon now, you know it makes cards other than Tin-Street better.
For starters, Caverns laughs at T1 FoW when you're on the play and dropping a Lackey. I know this is the most obvious benefit that we keep going on and on about, but it's a real advantage.
The next big advantage it gives is in the mid-game (T3-4) when it allows you to hardcast a Matron or Ringleader and guarantee it will resolve. Cavern has made Matron and Ringleader 50% better than they were before, just because you can now guarantee resolving them. This is a huge benefit when you're trying to chump a Goyf (against RUG Delver) or build a dominant board position (against Bant or Blade).
Minor advantages:
Stingscourger will hit Gin Getaxis or Elsh Norn.
Gempalm will be better through sheer virture of more gobbos making it into play.
T1 Chalice @ 1 = So?
Toolbox goblins will make it into play (Sharpshooter, Sting, TSH, whatevs).
Implicit Advantage:
Opposing decks will need to diversify their hate against goblins now. They can't rely on counterspells without land destruction, and even then Cavern still gets at least 1 activation. They'll need more sweepers, which slows them down, or spot removal, which thins their threats.
Racing combo will become easier. High Tide, Sneaky Tell, Hive Mind, these all want to stop a T1 Lackey so they don't have to race. That's more difficult for them now.
The benefit of running Cavern of Souls is far more expansive than simply making TSH better.
With Cavern of Souls, there're just two more printings to make Goblins a VERY good deck again:
Goblin Spellskite:
1R
1/2
R: Change the Target of target spell to Goblin Spellskite.
Flavor: "Nice Swords to Plowshares you have there mister.
Shattering Goblin:
R
1/1
Sacrifice Shattering Goblin: Destroy Target Artifact, you lose life equal to that artifact's manacost.
Flavor: Live the dream, fellow goblin players!
Okay, jokes apart, Cavern of Souls main effect is to make sure your Ringleader will hit play, and it should really be played as a four-of, in addition to AEther Vial. Back off with those Wasteland arguments, we're not Canadian Thresh.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
Sorry for being off topic, but I'm in the process of picking up R/B goblins and I was wondering why people don't play Auntie's Hovel. Is it just because it opens you up to Wasteland more?
Take a look at these two pages:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ins-2.0/page33
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ins-2.0/page34
The main problem is Wasteland, I think.
One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.
Yes, that and:
Giving your opponent information about your hand is bad.
4 - 6 fetch + 1-4 badlands are enough.
@Gobolord
- I agree bro with some of your points here regarding tuktuk and tsh but as a goblin player myself for 6 years, I myself am more comfortable with my one artifact removal goblin main deck because it gives us a mindset that we have outs given the artifact threat on board is on play and a better chance of removing it rather than dodging it.
- I also agree with playing more removals and killing the enabler SFM but this is a case to case basis yup it is better to kill sfm before it brings down skull or jitte but a u/wb player with plenty lands will only hardcast their skulls and jitte without SFM thus a problem for us if we have no artifact hate mainboard
- Isn't it okay to play removals back to back with one goblin artifact removal? - this sounds good to me because on an emergency basis we have a back up plan even if it is a one-off.
- TSH and Tuktuk are still mainboard one off worthy because neither our opponent has an artifact in play still it counts as a goblin body thus giving our piledriver a boost or a chumpblocker if we needed to.
- We need cavern of souls my fellow warchiefs maybe as a 2-3 off, an uncounterable lackey first turn is good but a midgame uncounterable matron, ringleader or seige gang is better. . .
I also came to this idea when punishing maverick was on the rise (End of Jan this year):
My main problem was to get the green sources online and to grab Punishing fire. with ringleader you get to see it, but instead of going into your grave it moves down your bib-bye bye. I couldn't tutor it and so i dropped it after some prelimitary testings.
Also if splashing right now I would always pack to badlands and a Weirding-especially to have access to Perish in SB.
I did some more testings yesterday vs. G/W Maverick and once again to lost one card like 3 times: Jitte. Yes it is cool and yes it beats tribal decks, and no there is not always a way to handle it. I tried removal, they play more and bigger creatures. I tried artifact hate (TSH), they get it back with eternal wittness. I tried Skirk Prospector to sac block, they got Scryb Ranger and flew over my army. The only thing I have not tested so far is a list with 2+ Fanatic, which combines Removal and sac blocking and synergieses with Sharpshooter.
Gobbos: Kings of flavortext!
@BigBopper: Thanks for sharing your insight.
Why are the cards not being fetchable a problem? I mean, P.Fire is not too bad on it's own, and Grove is a land that produces R.
Why your main problem was getting a G source? Our only MD card that uses green is 1 TSH.
I don't see how this version is worse against Maverick. It plays similarly to the Instigator-less build. They getting Jitte back, and having bigger guys happens against evert build.
About having "only" 30 goblins, that may be a problem, but I used to play that number in the Survival era, and the deck did fairly well.
That said, it may not be the greatest thing on the world, but I'd really like to give a shot at a tournament with it.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
I dont think P.fire is useful in gobs. In the beginning its to slow, I prefer Fanatic, Tarfire or Pyrokinesis here. Later on it doesnt help with the most problematic threads. Big creatures or Equipment. Swords and Skull are to big or even have pro red and Jitte just need a counter to dodge the 2 damage.
Also it weakens the manabase and is giving lifegain when you dont want it.
I see, that I didn't write it quite right: what I meant was, that I wasn't able to find a Groove (since it's not fetchable) and although I had 6 green producing mana in this deck, I still was crewed by wasteland on my green scource when I needed it for TSH. In fact this just a minor thing, since that could happen all the time when playing with only 2 Taiga.
I just made a couple of games with proxies and decided that the goblin count was too low. Maybe I dropped it too fast? I dunno it just feels like we're more and more inclunding answers for threats instead of playing them on our own. That's why I really liked the idea of WInstigator, 'cause it's a card that finds a discussion here and needs to be handled by opponents.
I also tried a couple of games lately with a proxed version including Descandant's Path. While i was very convinced of that card in the beginning it did not fullfill my expectations. Cast on turn 3 means you basically give your opponent a time walk, since it's not active until the next turn. And then I just found lands, vial or another Path. The only time it triggered for a goblin, it was a lackey. On the other hand one could say, that I would have drawn these cards instead, but maybe I need a land or want a vial. I need to do some more games with it, but my first impression is, that it is really slow, although it could give a huge amount of card advantage.
Gobbos: Kings of flavortext!
What about running an Ancient Grudge or two in the board if you're already splashing green for TSH? It's not the greatest thing in the world, but it will deal with a Jitte twice...
I honestly have the same problem against G/W and to some extent U/W, except I don't have the luxury of a green splash. Jitte was hard enough to deal with when it was 1-2 copies in the deck. Now between Stoneforge Mystic and Enlightened Tutor they're running 1 actual Jitte and a virtual 4-6 additional copies. I really hope we get some solid artifact hate that doesn't require a splash and comes down before turn 4.
I had very good resuslts against GW with my acual list and played on a 130man tournament with it. I lost twice to Esper and once to Sneak Show but overall the list was very solid. In the Espermatchups i got 2 times flooded and 1 times screwed. Maybe im going to add 2 more Fetchland.
PNeedle in the SB was a solid answer to SFM and Jitte, Ill try 3 next time.
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Goblin Piledriver
3 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
4 AEther Vial
2 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Matron
2 Tarfire
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Badlands
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
6 Snow-Covered Mountain
3 Mogg Fanatic
1 Mogg War Marshal
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
I'll try those things (pre ordered Path too, just because the card seems awesome, and is quite low price). Will probably have the same results as you though...
And Sulfur Elemental? were they usefull? In my testing they were quite lackuster.
I'll propably go with Needle again to handle Esper. in the best SB card against them on testing...
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
I've been away but I beat Maverick most games with mono red goblins and here is why
4 x Tarfire
4 x Gempalm Incinerator ( with 3 x MWM also in list )
2 x Stingscourger
and for good measure 3 x Pyrokinesis out of the SB ( Such a SB must have card )
I target the little creatures to stop them building up and then swing for the win!
Tempo and pressure! The key to aggro success.
( Unless against combo then see rest of my SB! )
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