Well actualy snowcover mountain can't be target of wasteland if you meant thatOriginally Posted by razor937
Still I think that scred is too conditional if you comparing it to lightning bolt.
I also wrote about tragic slip idea - any word on it?
Re: Skred/Tragic Slip
The problem with these cards is that they are not goblins. Sure, they may be great if you have one in your opener or you draw into it naturally, but a big part of this deck's power comes from "drawing" 3+ cards off of a Ringleader. There really is nothing worse than needing the answer you just stuffed on the bottom of your library. I personally think that the goblin based options we have access to are actually superior.
If you're looking to kill small creatures, Tarfire does most everything we need it to while being the all important goblin for Ringleader.
If you're looking to deal with larger creatures (i.e. Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary) Stingscourger is a very good choice. Sure, it doesn't kill them, but it does clear the way for a big attack and buy you a turn in terms of taking damage/having to block. Remember that Goyf and Knight don't have trample or any other relevant evasion...so we can chump them all day if we have to.
Gempalm Incinerator also gives you a little added removal with the added bonus of being uncounterable.
If you're looking to go the black route, Warren Weirding is another excellent removal spell and also a goblin.
I also tested a little around with removal. I even build a r/g deck with TSH based on Groove of the Burnwillows, Taiga and Punishing Fire, which I have mixed feelings about. Punishing Fire isn't a goblin which is a huge problem and we can't find the Groove, 'cause we don't play Knights. I'm also not convinced about TSH.
Another r/b attempt failed. I acutally wanted to play Weirding, but Fetches and Duals are targets for Stife and Wasteland and I hate to be mana-screwed.
So I got back to the mono red build with Chieftain and WInstigator but I still feel I don't get what I want: 2 artifact hate are fine. But I would also love at least 1 Piledriver, 23 lands, Tarfire, Gempalm, Fanatic and 2 Stinger, which is just not possible...
Stinger is also a big thing vs. Ooze, since you can get rid of its counters, especially when he's big and there are few creatures in the GYs. Other than that Punishing Maverick is still a very bad match and I hate to loose a lategame play with goblins, since that is when they usually shine.
Any suggestions on general lists are very welcome. Also a new consideration of common removal and quantity is fine.
Gobbos: Kings of flavortext!
@ BigBopper:
Out of curiosity, why do you feel that you need the 23rd land? Personally, I've been running 22 ever since I picked the deck up and I've never really felt that it was too few. Granted, there are times I've wanted to play 2+ guys per turn, but it's never because I've missed a land drop that I can't do it.
As far as a list, I'm currently messing around with this:
"Core"
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Vial
4 Wasteland
2 Siege-gang Commander
"Other"
4 WInstigator
4 Chieftain
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 TukTuk Scrapper
4 Tarfire
1 Stingscourger
2 Piledriver
18 Mountain
With pretty positive results. It's very similar to the last Scatman used to win some duals a few posts ago. The Tarfires have been fantastic for killing Stoneforge Mystics and leaving my opponents with Batterskull in hand while I dig for artifact removal.
I haven't had a chance to test against Punishing Maverick yet...but a buddy of mine is sleeving that up for our Thursday Night Legacy this week, so I'm hoping to get a few games in. It seems like a horrible matchup for us since we're pretty dead to Punishing Fire...but I think Blood Moon is a good way to shut that down. I'll let you know what I can find out.
As I'm still concerned with my sideboard my question is why you cut almost your whole combohate leaving only Revoker. It seems risky to me. Luckily you saw only Belcher. In my local meta happen to be one Belcher and one Painter/Grindstone but as I mentioned before at least 3 Burn decks. Atm I think 4 Thorn of Amethyst should do the deal for all of those...
If you want an OK card against Storm combo, that is an OK card against Burn, than Thorn is your card.
I was expecting almost zero combo decks on the 2nd tournament, so that's why it got the cut.
Painter don't exist around here.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
Stick a Blood Moon.
Also Surgical Extraction is useful. Punishing Fire can't be abused without passing through the graveyard. If you waste their Grove you can Extract that too.
@Davran - My list looks like yours. I can't bring myself to completely cut Piledriver yet =)
We were doing some testing last night and Piledriver was the card that got the win against Reanimator due to the oft forgot Pro-Blue. Jin, Sphinx and the rest could not block the mean machine. A cycling Gempalm killing Iona was also funny.
Well, Maverick has a way smaller cc-curve and their lists play 23, sometimes even 24 lands. The thing is that I can never mana screw them since they drop a land every turn, while I sit on high mana costing creatures. I don't have the feeling that I get mana flooded and since Vial sees almost as much removal as Lackey (Pridemage) I also want my 3 drops on turn 3. Furthermore I try barbarian ring, which has a somewhat in between position of mana production and uncounterable removal.
Since be almost auto loose to combo, we should at least win our control and aggro matchups to be dtb again. In that case maverick is the standard to beat-and I haven't done it with any list except ScatmanX's mono red version. Tarfire is our Punishing Fire!
Gobbos: Kings of flavortext!
Played a small tourney last week and beat control but struggled against combo and storm combo as my deck was set up for removal and chump blocking. i saw no other aggro decks.
I was wondering is it worth playing Chalice of Void maindeck as it gives the little green men more protection in game 1, and is also useful against zoo for example. even though meta comes into this, is it in general a good idea to start with COV MD?
i also saw the need for artifact removal in the MD!
We generally have weak combo matchups...just part of playing aggro really.
Also, most lists are running artifact hate MD in the form of TukTuk Scrapper. You should check him out, he's worth it.
The recent changes in the goblin lists don't make the combo-matchup any better, worse even. I suppose they are just necessary to combat the rest of the field.
I suppose if you are in a combo-heavy metagame you could mainboard Chalice. Or you could use the currently well performing main deck (less warchiefs/piledrivers, more instigators/chieftains/tarfire) and make a huge anti-combo board. (Keep in mind what you wish your deck to look like after boarding though, you'll probably dilute your goblin count a lot) I can even see Piledrivers/warchiefs or Chrome Mox in the board to try and speed up the aggro plan while not reducing the amount of goblins too much.
Putting more pressure on the combo deck can make them fizzle more often.
Mindbreak trap can be particularly good in game 3. Messing with their minds & all.
hi guys I ve always played mono red goblins so far, I love the deck but I m sick of loosing 90% of the times against combo. I hate that almost the only chance I have is them being unlucky. Actually G2 is not even that bad if I head off with lackey or chalice but the truth is that chalice on G3 doesn t do much because they play their 0cc artifacts on their first turn.
I m considering buying dual lands splashing black. I can see an advantage in making the deck more consistent having playable hate goblins in the side (or even 1x MD?) such as ferie macabre and Earwig Squad. I could give up once for all my love & hate layline of the void and maybe some chalice so this way the deck wouldn t be diluted too much.
But is Earwig Squad actually effective against combo? Is it too slow? what would you remove from decks like TES/ANT/belcher/high tide?
Moreover, I wonder whether is worth playing few discard in the sideboard and whether they are effective. I don t think thoughseize is worth over duress but what about duress/cabal therapy/inquisition of kozilek? has anyone playtested the difference?
splashing black and green I could see a sideboard with a rather diversified hate like this :
3 Faerie Macabre (all sort of GY stuff)
3 red elemental blast (blue)
2 krosan grip (enchantress, stoneforge mystic, plague)
2 chalice of the void (combo, burn, affinity)
2 discard (combo, equipment found by a stonforge mystic T2?)
1 pyrokinesis (maverick, affinity, zoo, merfolk?)
2 Earwig Squad (combo)
Moreover, I would play 2 artifact hate goblin MD, 1 Faerie Macabre MD, 1 Earwig Squad MD.
The most problematic decks for us out there have either one of these: equipments, graveyard stuff or combo. So why not running at least one answer to all of these MD? Including at least a copy of Faerie Macabre, tuktuk/TSH and Earwig Squad could give us the possibility to deal with problematic decks also game 1. Moreover, they are ALL goblins and at worst they have body to attack/block. They are all matronable and ringleader friendly. Even not in the best case scenario I can see the use of having a Earwig Squad removing equipments or Faerie Macabre reducing GY land count or cards for scavenging ooze/tarmogoyf or even only being only a flying creature...
If you are sick of losing against combo, just pack a ton of hate cards. If you are doing it right, you have tweaked your maindeck to face Maverick and blue decks already, so you will not be needing many sideboard slots against those. I could easily envision 10-12 slots preparing for the combo matchup ie 4 Chalice, 4 Thorn, 2-4 Mindbreak Trap and then 3-5 slots for the other unfair decks such as Reanimator and Sneak and Show (Stingscourger/graveyard hate).
Team R&D
@Mantis: that is what i did so far, I had a combo dedicated sideboard but I noticed that I could OK easily win G2 but nearly always loose G3. This is because chalice of the void and thorn are way too slow when on the draw. I could see that discard can make a difference because it is a hate that we can play turn one. Even if Earwig Squad are slow, playing them MD could give us increasing chance of winning G1. If we win G1 everything becomes easier: we will be on play in G3 and our hate will not be too slow. I understand that running 1 or 2 Earwig Squad MD does not auto-win G1 against combo but I don t see how that could hurt since they are quite flexible against many decks.
I don't think the answer is to make your deck worse overall to beat combo. Magic tends to work like this:
Combo beats aggro. Aggro beats Control. Control beats Combo.
Our worst match-ups are always going to be against combo decks because goblins are not set up to control the game. Sure, you can side in 15 anti-combo cards, but what does that do to the rest of the deck? What happens when they play around your hate and you're casting Ringleaders as 4 mana 2/2 guys and bottoming 4 lands/hate cards?
In my mind, if your meta is so combo heavy that you feel you need to dedicate your full sideboard to beating them goblins is the wrong deck to be playing. Sleeve up Merfolk or some other control build...it'll serve you much better.
Side your Ringleaders out against combo. Easy.
If I wre to play a 10 card combo hate SB, it would be 3 Thorn, 4 Chalice, 3 Trap. The rest would include 1 Tinkerer and 4 meta cards (probably Faerie for me). Thorn and Chalice are nice because you can bring them in agains some other decks too, like Canadian, Landstill, Enchantress...
Since most of my SB stayed there during my last tournament, I may give this a try sometime. Maybe adding a Mox to the main too...
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
Don t take me wrong I don t say to play mindbreak trap MD. You are right with saying "Combo beats aggro. Aggro beats Control. Control beats Combo" and there is little to do about that. However, I feel that the deck is already very strong against both control and aggro that I think it may be worth to dedicate 2-3 MD sloths for goblins that helps especially (but not only) against what we are weakest. My meta is rich in control decks and the deck shines, nevertheless, every tournament I meet at least one combo deck and I don t see why not to do something about it. Again, I ve always played monored, I m asking comments on discard/Earwig Squad, does it help against combo?
It looks like almost everybody is happy playing maindeck tuktuk (and I agree) because there are a lot of equipments around. Why is it not worth to play MD Faerie Macabre if there are as many snapcaster/punishing fire/life from the loam/tarmogoyf/Knight of the reliquary, let alone dredge/reanimator? Is it a matter of black mana?
I like the idea of having at least 1 card answer against anything MD as long as they are goblins. If there isn t a decent goblin enchantment hate at least I would like to deal with the rest. Also, playing 2-3 more hate MD means that there are 2-3 open spaces in the SB which we could benefit from in terms of flexibility.
That is fine I think. Never really thought about it. The deal is that we usually found more agroo and control than combo in tournaments.
Earwig Squad is a great option MD, and very good against some combo MU, like ANT.
Discard is very relevant, and imo should be Seize, unless you run some number of Mogg Warmarchall or Stingscourger. Then Cabal Therapy is better (it is certainly awesome vs Stoneforge decks).
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
Nice thread, guys... I had a two year break in my MTG things, it took me 4 evenings to adjust my head to the changes in legacy and my favourite archy -the gobs. It was quite dissapointing that our little green men lost tier one position(when did it happen?).
My first impressions are that MD artifact hate is a must these days.
Getting ready for some local Legacy, gonna be running my old RG list with some new stuff.
P.S. New Lackey pic is just great:)
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