[Deck] Solidarity

[Vacrix]

I actually really like the idea of playing 4 Meditate in the maindeck. Sometimes in the spell chain, we find ourselves playing Cunning Wish for 2U into Meditate for 2U... meaning we spent 4UU to draw 4 cards. Maybe its better to run more copies of Meditate in the maindeck that way we have a good chance of naturally drawing them.. and therefore Snapcasting them to make 3UU Meditates, cheaper than a Cunning Wish Meditate. Its too bad they errata's the wishes or else we could flashback something and that grab it with Cunning Wish (so broken).

@Three Wishes
I played it for a while and it was meh. I think Snapcaster is way better. It doubles as a mana producer, a kill condition, and a business spell. Its about time we ran 4. There's no reason to be afraid of removal because you don't HAVE to Snap it, and if they opponent does try to play a removal spell, you still get to untap 2 lands and it adds +1 to the storm count.

I agree with Seraphus about Brainfreeze. One in the MD is enough. Anymore than that and you can draw it too early before you can actually get a spell chain going.

[KZhang]

i'm not quite sure i get your points. so i apologize in advance in case i miss them.

Nah its not true Snapcaster doesn't tutor anything even if u have one of each card in your grave (less of X on deck more of X on grave, use meditate, that's the primary draw engine of the deck, and u'll see that). Snapcaster is a recycler not a tutor, fell free to disagree but....

doesn't tutor work the same way? less of X in the deck, more of X in your hand.

Let me put the things this way: U have to combo to draw 3 cards... that doesnt sound that much resilient i am right? Moreover u need to successfully cast VoB and/or Snapcaster...

you will need to combo off regardless to win. Just that setting up this way, which again is not difficult, you gain an additional avenue for card advantage. You will also get to brainfreeze earlier, to turn your brainstorms into ACalls as well, without having to worry that you need to find a remand for the BF on that stack.

The other thing is while u try to set up VoB as a Recall as soon as possible, I don't try to do that. For me the purpose for Vob is: early game 1cmc drop = 1 draw, the Ancestral thing is only for stability and to lower the fizzle rate...

I use VoB for the same purpose (simple cantrip) as well early game. I'm just curious, while testing, how often did you manage to VoB for draw 3 w/o casting a BF? usually if i manage to storm for 18 (assuming with 2 fetches), VoB doesnt really matter anymore. i suppose with your list you still have TfK as an additional enabler.

Ah and Bf doesn't draw cards nor works as a mechanical card. (Before in the past long lost it would interact with FoI but it was very risky) What I meant is that this tricks with bf are solutions that u need to know but not strong plays... They are resources, and this is why solidarity and non of the other decks provides: a full pack of different solutions!

In my opinion, BF and Snapcaster is the new FoI for Solidarity.

[Vacrix]

Snapcaster isn't really the same thing as a tutor... take as an example what happens when your opponent removes your graveyard from the game, or Surgical Extraction's the juiciest target.

In regards to VoB... if you have to Brainfreeze yourself to continue the combo.. you're probably doing something wrong either in your build or play style. Yeah yeah everyone used to play FoI and do that all the time.. but the very reason you had to do that anyway because FoI is a POS that you can't even use before the combo turn. If you were playing less copies of Brainfreeze and FoI and more copies of something else, you'd simply do a different line of play. I really don't like this Brainfreeze on yourself line of play. You could potentially mill a lot of important cards and not win. It should be a last ditch effort kind of play that happens rarely. Just play Peer Through Depths and find a Meditate. Peer can be used to set up, and will dig just as deep as an early FoI and for cheaper because you won't have to hard cast it before you play the cheaper Flashback cost. Peer also has synergy with Snapcaster, unlike FoI. Digging 10 cards deep for 2 cards... for 6 mana isn't that bad. You could find a Meditate and a Reset with that much dig power.

I'd say FoI was outclassed by Peer Through Depths a looong time ago, but old habits die hard, just like old tech with people that play oldschool combo decks. Honestly... you shouldn't be BF + Snapcaster to continue the combo itself; that combination should be a kill condition only except on a rare occassion. Run fewer copies of Brainfreeze and you won't find yourself stuck with a line of play like that, especially one thats prone to graveyard hate.



Also... how good is Thoughtscour over Opt? I can see the synergy with Brainstorm.. and potentially VoB and Snapcaster.

[KZhang]

Snapcaster isn't really the same thing as a tutor... take as an example what happens when your opponent removes your graveyard from the game, or Surgical Extraction's the juiciest target.

agreed. but unless it's an extirpate, you still have control of the stack. and again, by the time you use a snapcaster mid combo, everything you want to cast would usually already be in the GY.

In regards to VoB... if you have to Brainfreeze yourself to continue the combo.. you're probably doing something wrong either in your build or play style.

why do you have you BF yourself? unless it's an desperate situation, your BF should always target your opp. It just that the BF will not lethal at that point in time. and dont have to resolve the entire BF, just enough to get your VoB active.

the BF snapcaster scenario was just another example of how BF can be used as an enabler in a bad situation. If used correctly, it is never a bad card.

the problem is, because we have always been finishing off of the combo with 1 large BF, we have not been considering the usefulness of having multiple BF.

Yeah yeah everyone used to play FoI and do that all the time.. but the very reason you had to do that anyway because FoI is a POS that you can't even use before the combo turn. If you were playing less copies of Brainfreeze and FoI and more copies of something else, you'd simply do a different line of play. I really don't like this Brainfreeze on yourself line of play. You could potentially mill a lot of important cards and not win. It should be a last ditch effort kind of play that happens rarely. Just play Peer Through Depths and find a Meditate. Peer can be used to set up, and will dig just as deep as an early FoI and for cheaper because you won't have to hard cast it before you play the cheaper Flashback cost. Peer also has synergy with Snapcaster, unlike FoI. Digging 10 cards deep for 2 cards... for 6 mana isn't that bad. You could find a Meditate and a Reset with that much dig power.

I'd say FoI was outclassed by Peer Through Depths a looong time ago, but old habits die hard, just like old tech with people that play oldschool combo decks. Honestly... you shouldn't be BF + Snapcaster to continue the combo itself; that combination should be a kill condition only except on a rare occassion. Run fewer copies of Brainfreeze and you won't find yourself stuck with a line of play like that, especially one thats prone to graveyard hate.

If there are better or more consistent ways for fueling a VoB than a mid combo brain freeze, let me know.

thanks for the condescending tone. appreciate it. especially when it shows you didnt understand my points.

[Seraphus]

Thoughtscour sucks because of this: Goyf, Mongose, Snapcaster, knight...

U dont need to apologize I'll explain better...

U said: Less of X in the deck More of X in the Hand, i said grave instead of hand... U assume that Snapy will resolve his trigger but that doesn't happen all the time... I for example played vs a guy that uses the Scaveging Ooze and he just removed the target of snapcaster...

I should mention that TFK also works good with Snapcaster...

Look at this: how many counters does your op need to disrupt u with the BF+Vob play if he doesn't want u to draw? 1. And how many for any other play with two draw cards cards? 2...

U can play the same trick that u usually do with the 2 bf, but u only need one BF, after all snapcaster can flashback BF... right?

[Vacrix]

By the time there are enough cards in your graveyard to activate a VoB, you should just be targetting your opponent with BF and Remand/Snapcaster it. I honestly don't see much reason for VoB. Its a card thats flashy when you are already winning but it doesn't really pull you out of situations that you'd otherwise lose. I played with it a bunch and didn't find it particularly helpful as business spell until I really didn't need one anymore.

Even if you still have control of the stack, you lose a Snapcaster.. unless you Snap Snapcaster in response and then replay it and then continue responding to the Surgical. The point is that its not a tutor but it functions like one when you have a full graveyard.

We have considered the usefulness of multiple BF's. Multiple means you can make smaller spell chains with Remands/Snapcasters into early BF's, perhaps without even playing a single Meditate; however, when you run too many of these cards, issues can arise when these cards clog up your hand and prevent you from sculpting. For example, if you run x2 BF over x2 Peer Through Depths, there will be games where you can't sculpt enough to find High Tide because you are stuck with extra copies of Brainfreeze you don't need in your hand. Honestly, set up is what's key about this deck. The faster you can setup and sculpt reliably to win on turn 4 (ideal combo turn, 3 is unreasonable and doesn't happen often) the better. Cards like Brainfreeze don't help you sculpt. Once you are inside the combo going off, you shouldn't have much trouble getting to a win. At least I know I don't in my experience.

There really isn't a better way to fuel a VoB mid combo than Brainfreeze. The point is that isn't a reliable line of play until you can already win with something else so its relatively pointless to pursue that line of play unless you want a bunch of cool points for playing Ancestral Recall in Legacy Solidarity. Honestly, how many games did you pursue this line of play when you couldn't win in any other way? I played with VoB a bunch and VoB didn't win me a single game I couldn't have won without it. Just sayn..

In regards to my tone and your points... I understood them, and please excuse any condescension. I'm honestly just sick of hearing about FoI and kind of starting raging when I see people bring it up. In regards to VoB... I don't see it being viable in current builds. I'm actually more interested in Thoughtscour, when played it gets you 3 cards into the graveyard just from playing 1, add in say 3 fetchlands, and High Tide, Meditate, Reset, Brainstorm, etc. it wouldn't be hard to get a mass of cards into the graveyard quickly I'd say thats a good method when compared to Brainfreeze, especially when Thoughtscour compliments Brainstorm so nicely when you want to get rid of lands during the combo turn.

[Seraphus]

"Why Vob? It's like cheating: my favourite card 1 cmc drawer was Opt, but think like this haven't we enough choices to do while playing this deck? And even if you master this deck, earlier in the game can you say with 100% sure that every choice you make is right? No, there's no way to understand that this early in the game, even if you are digging for lands. So we cheat a little and play with VoB, that doesn't requires us to choose anything in early game and that in late game/mid-combo with snapcaster it works well enough."

"TFK and VoB: u wont notice many differences at frist. Use VoB like a ciclying card (thats what I do). Think of this cards in this way: TFK + VoB AND Mage (later on). It's like u need to build the foundations before building a house, if u know what i mean..."


"For me the purpose for Vob is: early game 1cmc drop = 1 draw, the Ancestral thing is only for stability and to lower the fizzle rate..."

This is why the VoB, i can point out one or two other reasons....

[KZhang]

U dont need to apologize I'll explain better...

U said: Less of X in the deck More of X in the Hand, i said grave instead of hand... U assume that Snapy will resolve his trigger but that doesn't happen all the time... I for example played vs a guy that uses the Scaveging Ooze and he just removed the target of snapcaster...

i see your point there.

I should mention that TFK also works good with Snapcaster...

true.

Look at this: how many counters does your op need to disrupt u with the BF+Vob play if he doesn't want u to draw? 1. And how many for any other play with two draw cards cards? 2...

If he lets you set up just to counter VoB, wont he be in a very bad shape already? arent there more impt things to counter, like high tide or reset?

U can play the same trick that u usually do with the 2 bf, but u only need one BF, after all snapcaster can flashback BF... right?

[/QUOTE]

that is true too. when i was playing, ScM was mostly used to pull back meditates, VoBs, resets and tide. only on rare occasion did i use it for BF. i guess if i tightened my play, this could work too.

ok. much clearer. Thanks!

[Vacrix]

"Why Vob? It's like cheating: my favourite card 1 cmc drawer was Opt, but think like this haven't we enough choices to do while playing this deck? And even if you master this deck, earlier in the game can you say with 100% sure that every choice you make is right? No, there's no way to understand that this early in the game, even if you are digging for lands. So we cheat a little and play with VoB, that doesn't requires us to choose anything in early game and that in late game/mid-combo with snapcaster it works well enough."

"TFK and VoB: u wont notice many differences at frist. Use VoB like a ciclying card (thats what I do). Think of this cards in this way: TFK + VoB AND Mage (later on). It's like u need to build the foundations before building a house, if u know what i mean..."


"For me the purpose for Vob is: early game 1cmc drop = 1 draw, the Ancestral thing is only for stability and to lower the fizzle rate..."

This is why the VoB, i can point out one or two other reasons....

Setting up in the early turns is a great reason to run Opt over VoB. This deck doesn't give a shit about the late-game/midcombo because its designed to win after that point anyway. Getting to the point at which you can even combo is important or the late-game and mid-combo don't matter at all. Sure it lowers the fizzle rate once you are in the combo, but what if you can't even get to combo because you couldn't find all the pieces you need to go off? Opt is better at finding combo pieces. Its more valuable than ensuring you don't fizzle once you are spell chaining. I'd say just be more careful when you are in the combo turn, take your time, and you won't fizz. Honestly, Peer Through the Depths really helps you to avoid fizzing. +X Impulses that search a card deeper goes a long way when you need something to help the spell chain continue. I mean how often do you guys fizz? Its a rare occurence for me. I find myself dying before I even get to combo far more often than I do losing to the deck giving me shitty draws. Given that, I support the sculpting and set up rather than combo consistency.

[KZhang]

By the time there are enough cards in your graveyard to activate a VoB, you should just be targetting your opponent with BF and Remand/Snapcaster it. I honestly don't see much reason for VoB. Its a card thats flashy when you are already winning but it doesn't really pull you out of situations that you'd otherwise lose. I played with it a bunch and didn't find it particularly helpful as business spell until I really didn't need one anymore.

the problem i had with Solidarity was that it didnt feel that i had enough draw power. quite often, i ended with with a hand that only had 1 draw/dig card left, and i needed it to hit something else or fizzle. VoB just happened to be that perfect mid combo draw spell, the downside of which, is that it requires some set up to function as an ACall. All the other times, it can still function as a cantrip.

Even if you still have control of the stack, you lose a Snapcaster.. unless you Snap Snapcaster in response and then replay it and then continue responding to the Surgical. The point is that its not a tutor but it functions like one when you have a full graveyard.

agreed. which was what i was trying to say. it can function as a psuedo tutor. and you dont need a full graveyard, because all the spells you would want to flashback would likely already be cast in the beginning of your combo chain.

We have considered the usefulness of multiple BF's. Multiple means you can make smaller spell chains with Remands/Snapcasters into early BF's, perhaps without even playing a single Meditate; however, when you run too many of these cards, issues can arise when these cards clog up your hand and prevent you from sculpting. For example, if you run x2 BF over x2 Peer Through Depths, there will be games where you can't sculpt enough to find High Tide because you are stuck with extra copies of Brainfreeze you don't need in your hand. Honestly, set up is what's key about this deck. The faster you can setup and sculpt reliably to win on turn 4 (ideal combo turn, 3 is unreasonable and doesn't happen often) the better. Cards like Brainfreeze don't help you sculpt. Once you are inside the combo going off, you shouldn't have much trouble getting to a win. At least I know I don't in my experience.

IMO, there are 2 major part to playing this this deck. 1st, as you mentioned, is the sculpting. 2nd, is the combo chain. i think the main basis of the argument is that you are more focused on the sculpting part, whereas i'm more focused on how to keep the combo chain going. to me, having an additional BF powers up brainstorms, VOB, and makes it more likely that i can use cunning wish for something else.

There really isn't a better way to fuel a VoB mid combo than Brainfreeze. The point is that isn't a reliable line of play until you can already win with something else so its relatively pointless to pursue that line of play unless you want a bunch of cool points for playing Ancestral Recall in Legacy Solidarity. Honestly, how many games did you pursue this line of play when you couldn't win in any other way? I played with VoB a bunch and VoB didn't win me a single game I couldn't have won without it. Just sayn..

Hmm. i guess this is why playing style differs. I've been really happy running splits of Opt and VoB. i play VoB like Opt without the option, but like ACall when i get an early BF during the combo chain.

In regards to my tone and your points... I understood them, and please excuse any condescension. I'm honestly just sick of hearing about FoI and kind of starting raging when I see people bring it up. In regards to VoB... I don't see it being viable in current builds. I'm actually more interested in Thoughtscour, when played it gets you 3 cards into the graveyard just from playing 1, add in say 3 fetchlands, and High Tide, Meditate, Reset, Brainstorm, etc. it wouldn't be hard to get a mass of cards into the graveyard quickly I'd say thats a good method when compared to Brainfreeze, especially when Thoughtscour compliments Brainstorm so nicely when you want to get rid of lands during the combo turn.

Apology accepted. =) i actually use Brainfreeze for what you suggested for thought scour. more often than not, i keep storms of BF on the stack just so that i can get full value out of my brainstorms. and the benefit of using BF of though scour for this is
1) BF is still your finisher
2) BF can give you full value out of more than 1 BS.

[Spigore]

Hi all! ;)

I guess spending Tide + Impulse + Reset/Turnabout + cantrip + Opt/Peek + Brain Freeze for a filled graveyard to enable VoB is a matter of playstyle. I totally don't like this and even more in game 2/3 when Surgical Extraction can be expected.
"But then you simply keep the Extraction on the stack and continue combo!"
- Great now you've just spent cards to trigger VoB but also forced yourself to combo.

Again, it's a matter of playstyle. Personally I very much like my friend's Seraphus list.
We've been brewing on below list, pretty much from what we've been piloting in GP Amsterdam;


// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
12 [P3] Island (1)

// Creatures
3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage

// Spells
4 [FE] High Tide (1)
4 [LG] Reset
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [VI] Impulse
1 [JU] Flash of Insight
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
2 [US] Turnabout
1 [SC] Brain Freeze
4 [TE] Meditate
4 [IN] Opt
2 [GP] Repeal
2 [UL] Snap
2 [JGC] Cunning Wish
1 [VI] Three Wishes

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [MBS] Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 [VI] Three Wishes
SB: 3 [PLC] Piracy Charm

In testing, this current list is a powerhouse. Note that there's no more Remand.
Remand used to slow down your opponents and safeguard your own spells from counters. The bounce-suite do pretty much the same thing and synergize with the Mage very well to up the storm.

I think running 4 Meditate runs pretty well, it allows EOT(3-4) Meditate and keeping enough copies of this powerful card in the library during the combo.

Regarding Piracy Charm; Seraphus suggested this card, since we really need an answer to hatebears, but especially to enemy speed cards as listed by Seraphus. We've been toying with Dismember in the past, but man, 4 life is quite a chunk.

Confidant, Snapcaster, Vendilion Clique, Thalia, Noble, Dryad Harbor, Mother of Runes, Delver, Lackey, Grim lavamancer... The thing is it kills!

Last weekend I had a very good time with Piracy Charm vs MUD where it knocked down Goblin Welder all day long.

old habits die hard, just like old tech with people that play oldschool combo decks.

I LOL-ed. So true!
I really like your brainstorming Vacrix. Freezing yourself has the tendency to mill you important cards and snapcasting them and exposing them for S.Extraction is risky.
All in all, it's a lot of effort and you are spending and risking to turn VoB into a A.Recall. Ofcourse, without a doubt, if 20 cards in GY is a fact during combo, VoB > Opt.

Regarding FoI being outclassed by PTD, I have to disagree. With above list, FoI is needed less more than before. While running a 3rd Mage and the ability to recycle the powerful man, it secures the availability of cards.
I use FoI as a last resort, when my library tends to get low to tutor through my entire library and restack it the way you want. This is something PTD never can do for you endgame.


Uhm, yeah enough talk. Time to go back to work.
Please think, suggest, comment, criticise!

[Vacrix]

Maybe we should take another look at Intuition as a potential 5th Mediate. If you run like 4 Snapcaster, then it doesn't even really matter if 2 cards go to the graveyard cause you can play them anyway with Flashback. Intuition is also +3 cards to the graveyard for builds running VoB. Also, Intuition for multiple Snaps produces quite a bit of mana if you're holding Snapcaster.

Edit:
I still don't understand Piracy Charm. I'd think that Chain of Vapor would be better if you want to get rid of bears. That or Repeal.


Edit:

Thoughtscour sucks because of this: Goyf, Mongose, Snapcaster, knight...

...you play it targeting yourself dude. Goyf will still be small, Goose won't get threshed, Snapcaster won't have +2 targets in their own yard, and Knight doesn't benefit from lands in your graveyard. You can target the cards in your grave with your own Snapcaster, or build up to VoB if that is in fact a reliable way to get to contribute to getting to 20 cards. Also, it combos with Brainstorm, which can be pretty beast both during the combo turn, and to help you set up.

[smoky squirrel]

Maybe something worth noting, Visions of Beyond doesn't care which graveyard has 20 cards in it, so you could target your opponent using a small chain into brain freeze (+- 5 storm), then continue on comboing with a second brain freeze with the freshly drawn cards and a snapcaster for example.

[Spigore]

Hi Vacrix,

Basically, you always leave fetch open to flush down the two cards you don't want to draw after a resolved Brainstorm. But I do get your point.
Personally I don't like Scour; it brings in more risk (Extraction, Goyf, etc.) than advantage (Snap/VoB)

You are right on the Piracy Charm. Most hatebears (Meddling Mage, Canonist, Gaddock Teeg (not much of an issue), etc etc) are 2/2 ofcourse. These are pretty easy to play around, sit them out until you can bounce and go.
But the key to Piracy Charm is to take out the speed advantage other decks have on you i.e. Lackey, Confidant, Noble Hierarch, Dryad Arbor, Delver etc.

Intuition could replace either FoI or 3Wishes in my list. But I see Intuition more as a setup card whereas FoI and 3Wishes are mostly used during combo.

[Vacrix]

Maybe something worth noting, Visions of Beyond doesn't care which graveyard has 20 cards in it, so you could target your opponent using a small chain into brain freeze (+- 5 storm), then continue on comboing with a second brain freeze with the freshly drawn cards and a snapcaster for example.

Thats a good point. I don't think that line of play will come up often though.


EDIT:
Its worth noting that against hatebears, if they bother to attack with them, you can play Snapcaster at instant speed and block it if that's the optimal play.

Yeah I don't like Thought Scour either just from looking at it but I haven't played with it along side VoB and Snapcaster so I can't say for sure. The deck is already at risk for Extraction. Goyf, not so much. Goyf is usually a 2/3 against us as we only play lands and Instants... and occasionally they will send a Snapcaster to the grave. Otherwise, if they don't play Ponder or Chain Lightning, they won't have a Goyf bigger than a 2/3, occassionally its a 3/4.

@Piracy Charm
Ah I see so you play it against aggressive decks not bears. Interesting idea. Lackey seems like the best application, followed by an unflipped Delver. How often does the discard a card option make a difference? Perhaps with Peek you could find a good time to make that play.

Intuition can be used mid-combo or during the set up, an advantage that Three Wishes and FoI do not have. Mid combo it does pretty much the same thing as Cunning Wish, grabbing you a card for 2U, but also providing you with cards in the graveyard to interact with Snapcaster. Three Wishes I found rather underwhelming. I think its better just to run the playset of Snapcasters instead.

[KZhang]

[QUOTE]

Thats a good point. I don't think that line of play will come up often though.

erm, thats what i have been saying for the past few posts. =/

and yes, that line of play comes up quite often. (whenever you have a BF and VoB in hand)

[Seraphus]

[QUOTE=KZhang;640019]

erm, thats what i have been saying for the past few posts. =/

and yes, that line of play comes up quite often. (whenever you have a BF and VoB in hand)

But u can do it with just 1 BF....

[wolfstorm]

@Three Wishes
I played it for a while and it was meh. I think Snapcaster is way better. It doubles as a mana producer, a kill condition, and a business spell. Its about time we ran 4. There's no reason to be afraid of removal because you don't HAVE to Snap it, and if they opponent does try to play a removal spell, you still get to untap 2 lands and it adds +1 to the storm count

Does snap actually untap your lands if its target is removed?.. I was under the impression that it would fizzle.

[Vacrix]

Yeah I guess it fizzles, my bad. Honestly I haven't played with Snap/Snapcaster yet. I lent Solidarity to a friend a while back, literally just got it back today. Might play in an event in LA on Sunday. Bringing Trops for Tangle/Krosan Grip, Mindbreak Traps and I"m going to try to pick up some Snaps so I can borrow a friend's Snapcasters. Should be sick.

[Blue]

Has anyone tried Noxious Revival? It's seems like it would be pretty good.