[Deck] Dredge

[claudio.r]

four leylines is great choice for the mirror also if you own 3 led's why would you only play 2?? as for an led less list play the led list but instead of one led use a tireless tribe or put in the last thug

Sorry, it was a typo, i only own 2 LED's...

[jares]

I've been reading the last couple of pages and it seems the LED version is considered the strongest.

As of now i only own 2 LED's, and i've been of magic for some time, i have almost all the pieces for a Ledless list (i used to play before i took some time). Coming friday i will participate in a small tournament here in my town, so i would like to ask you guys how foes a good Ledless list looks like nowdays. Or, a LED list that only plays 2 LED's (which should not be that viable, but since it will be a small tournament, ou never know).

Also, i'm expecting to see the mirror, is playing 4 leylines (of the void) in the sideboard a reasonable choice)?

You may want to play around with this LEDless list for reference (even if it might be a bit unconventional in subtle ways).

I hope that helps.

Cheers,
jares

[jares]

I really like this idea, I've been trying to cut Putrid Imp from this deck game 1 for awhile, but I always replaced it with some kind of functional equivalent. I never thought of just using my DDD strategy to replace Putrid Imp altogether and keep Cephalid Coliseum in the deck regardless to be a turn 3 draw spell. It could be well worth tinkering with.

Edit: That Putrid Imp seems kind of out of place, you may as well up the land count or soemthing to 11.

It kinda makes me wonder what we could effectively use the Putrid Imp slots for, a set of Darkblasts for an uncounterable, discarded Dredge is kind of appealing also because it doesn't set you back nearly as far if it's countered and picks off random targets.

I also feel that, even if Putrid Imp has generally been underwhelming in its contributions to the current versions of the deck, we should still try to replace it with something that's functionally equivalent. LED lists may have that added luxury because LED by itself is also a discard outlet, and also because of the reduced dependence on Ichorid, and thus, on black creatures. I like the Darkblast idea, though my initial thought about that is that it's not as reliable as a turn-1 Putrid Imp or even a DDD (and may arguably just be as reliable as, say, a Burning Inquiry).

I hope that they print another Careful Study soon.

Cheers,
jares

[claudio.r]

You may want to play around with this LEDless list for reference (even if it might be a bit unconventional in subtle ways).

I hope that helps.

Cheers,
jares

I dig your list, but i think it's a little too unconventional for me. I always played a minimum of 3 Ichorids, so its a little bit strange to see a list with no ichorids. Have you felt the need of ichorid while playiong that list? Or did you felt it's not needed?

[Izor]

Just play this:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

2 LED
4 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

3 Ichorid
4 Bridge From Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return

If you want the 15th Land, cut the DR. If you want a DR package, add a DR target, 1 DR and cut a Putrid Imp and something else.

[Artlee]

I was reading Ando Ferguson's tournament report, and I saw he played flayer of the hatebound. Is there a reason no one in here is using it?

[jares]

I dig your list, but i think it's a little too unconventional for me. I always played a minimum of 3 Ichorids, so its a little bit strange to see a list with no ichorids. Have you felt the need of ichorid while playiong that list? Or did you felt it's not needed?

Oh, you might have overlooked the Ichorids, as I run the full set in the main deck!

The list I run is actually VERY dependent on Ichorids, even during game 1. The most current LEDless list that I run forgoes the use of Dread Return, but in the list I showed you, the DRs are there for specific match-ups where the DR targets would be most needed. I would surely help you to play around with the lists that run Tireless Tribe too, and there are even others that use Firestorm in the main deck (which has been much less effective in LED lists, even from the sideboard). Also, the meta that you'll be playing against will be a major consideration, especially since it won't be a very diverse meta (if I understood correctly).

Kind Regards,
jares

[jares]

I was reading Ando Ferguson's tournament report, and I saw he played flayer of the hatebound. Is there a reason no one in here is using it?

Actually, many of the players here have already been using Flayer of the Hatebound. You'll have to do some back-reading to find the references to the lists that use the card as the combo-finisher. The main discussion-point about that list is the use of three Dread Returns in the main deck to increase the likelihood of pulling-off the combo-finish.

Cheers,
jares

[claudio.r]

Just play this:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

2 LED
4 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

3 Ichorid
4 Bridge From Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return

If you want the 15th Land, cut the DR. If you want a DR package, add a DR target, 1 DR and cut a Putrid Imp and something else.

I will test a list very close to this one, i'm not convinced that 2 LEDs will be enough, buit nothing like testing to see.

@Jares sorry about that, i overlooked the Ichorids

[NecroYawgmoth]

I was reading Ando Ferguson's tournament report, and I saw he played flayer of the hatebound. Is there a reason no one in here is using it?

The only annoying thing is that you need 4! slots to play that Flayer-package, which is many players too much. Flayer is really strong IMO, but the problem for those people not running him is not the creature itself, it's the 3 needed DRs. It's no problem to get that 4 slots if you cut the PImps. My curent Flayer-list looks like that:

//Dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

//Graveyard Goodies
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid

//other stuff
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

//Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Tarnished Citadel

[jares]

The only annoying thing is that you need 4! slots to play that Flayer-package, which is many players too much. Flayer is really strong IMO, but the problem for those people not running him is not the creature itself, it's the 3 needed DRs.

Discussions about the number of DRs necessary in a build always remind me of the "Spanish Lists" that use only 1 Dread Return in the entire 75-card list, as I've found that configuration to be very interesting. I look at it as a means of saving as much space as possible, somewhat like penny-pinching on the number of slots required for a DR package.

In comparison, the "Flayer Package" requires 3 DRs! That's quite a difference in the "cost" of these investments. Maybe we can go with a "Spanish Flayer Package" running only 2 DRs.

Cheers,
jares

[badjuju]

Discussions about the number of DRs necessary in a build always remind me of the "Spanish Lists" that use only 1 Dread Return in the entire 75-card list, as I've found that configuration to be very interesting. I look at it as a means of saving as much space as possible, somewhat like penny-pinching on the number of slots required for a DR package.

In comparison, the "Flayer Package" requires 3 DRs! That's quite a difference in the "cost" of these investments. Maybe we can go with a "Spanish Flayer Package" running only 2 DRs.

Cheers,
jares

I think the idea of running only 2 DRs in a Flayer list has been discussed to death already haha. We've tried it, and it just doesn't feel comfortable.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Discussions about the number of DRs necessary in a build always remind me of the "Spanish Lists" that use only 1 Dread Return in the entire 75-card list, as I've found that configuration to be very interesting. I look at it as a means of saving as much space as possible, somewhat like penny-pinching on the number of slots required for a DR package.

In comparison, the "Flayer Package" requires 3 DRs! That's quite a difference in the "cost" of these investments. Maybe we can go with a "Spanish Flayer Package" running only 2 DRs.

Cheers,
jares

The problem is, that you need the 2 DRs in the turn you want to kill the opponent. [The first for the Flayer, and the 2nd for the GGT], this doesn't happen very often when you play 2 because you need both . With only 2DRs I'd play Angel over Flayer [or alternatively 0 targets with Ichorid & Thug nr.4].

[jares]

I think the idea of running only 2 DRs in a Flayer list has been discussed to death already haha. We've tried it, and it just doesn't feel comfortable.

Yeah, I guess so, as I also have that "uncomfortable feeling", the same one I get when running only 1 Dread Return while having a DR target buried somewhere in the deck.

Cheers,
jares

[badjuju]

@Necro

How has cutting Pimps entirely been for you? I have a feeling that you probably don't miss him :P

[NecroYawgmoth]

@Necro

How has cutting Pimps entirely been for you? I have a feeling that you probably don't miss him :P

I board him out nearly everytime anyways, so my only problem now is it to find other cards to board out =P

I like him, and for some reason I think he will be needed as a 4-off in ~2 month, because people are starting to play Crypts again. Still, as long as I don't get overwhelmed by these things, I'm not going to play him. =P

[ZebraSleeves]

Hey y'all. I've been playing around with the idea of using 2 Deadly Allure in the SB as a Firestorm substitute against ooze. It doesn't dilute your deck as much and its not as dependent on your opening hand. The sorcery speed kinda sucks though.

Also, Last week I top 4'd at a local tourney with the Fearless Feldman list. I played a mirror against a Flayer build and he just couldn't seem to go off. It seems very inconsistent. I'll concede that discard dorks make you a turn slower, but I seem to have very few consistency issues with the old LEDless build. Is it really worth it to invest in the LED's?

[Izor]

Is it really worth it to invest in the LED's?

It makes the deck twice as expensive and maybe 5% better. So I guess in that sense the answer is No? I don't know. If you're interested in the most optimal build, I'd try to get LEDs, though. Not that it's always the strictly better build, but sometimes it's better to run them.

deadly Allure is really really bad, sorry. Run Firestorm or nothing and just race them.

[Mojeh]

I played a small local tournament this weekend with LEDless (pretty standard, 15 lands, 12 dredgers, 2 DR, 3 Ichorid, Faithless over TTribes) and I've found the increased speed offered by LED is really, really important.
I lost the mirror miserably, and lost to Maverick due to the lack of speed.

Maverick can come with almost any kind of hate, and sometimes the best thing you can do is just ignore them and race for the win.
Also, I won against Reanimator due to the lack of skill from my opponent, otherwise I would've be crushed.
Really guys, unless everybody returns to play artifact-form hate, I don't think LEDless will ever be as good as LED Dredge.

[Michael Keller]

I believe cutting Putrid Imp is a mistake. It is the really the only permanent-controlled discard effect you have in all three potential games, which in turn makes permanent-based hate strategies less effective against you. Running Tribe and Imp is probably overkill in LED Dredge, but I firmly believe cutting Putrid Imp all together is not the optimal strategy. The card is too multifaceted to cut.

I never board them out game's two and three, ever.