Looks fine except for the fetchlands :)
Has anyone considered playing post-board Ensnaring Bridges? Its great against Show and Tell (I expect to be more heavily played upon the advent of Grizzlybang) and Reanimator, and obviously you can play it to efficiency against any deck with creatures.
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I've seen it played but my thought is all the decks you would really need it against, at 3cc, its too slow to get out.Originally Posted by Vacrix
I need them to feed Barbarian Ring, unfortunately.
on Ensnaring Bridge: Sometimes 3cc is just too much to get to. And the decks we want it against can usually destroy it anyway. Angel of Despair :(
Actually, I've also been considering running Fetch Lands alongside Barbarian Rings and without Grim Lavamancers, and I'm interested to see how that will work. It seems counter-intuitive, but I believe that the inclusion of a few Fetch Lands will be able to help in Deck Thinning and activating Threshold (given that Hellspark Elemental is being run) without causing any major drawbacks.
As an additional note, I would suggest cutting-down on the Magma Jets, as you won't generally want to see one in the opening hand and especially not in multiples (my personal preference would be to not run any at all).
I hope that helps in time.
Kind Regards,
jares
I did some testing on Dangerous Wager, and so far it hasn't looked very promising. I believe that some have already tested this card, and have had okay results, but I've found it to be unreliable, and many times did I wish for the card to be something else. As previously noted, it often caused tempo loss, which many times did cost me the game.
Do let me know if I missed something specific in my testing, or if the positive results that have been previously noted required some specific configuration to make the card work.
Vexing Devil was so-so to okay, and I'll continue testing this card until I'm convinced that it belongs to this deck without question.
Kind Regards,
jares
Wow you guys are having trouble getting threshold? :p Never happened to me yet with Austin's List.
I don't expect people to have too much trouble with reaching Threshold in this deck, but having the extra means of getting there would surely help, considering that Hellspark Elemental ain't too Threshold-friendly.
Cheers,
jares
I dont really like the fetchlands. Let us know how it works for you.
I did some more testing on Dangerous Wager, and at this point I would say that it has been very disappointing, given that my expectations for it were for the card to at least be "okay". Do let us know if anyone else has had better experiences with the card, as I would be interested in how it turned out during your testing.
Cheers,
jares
I would have to ask exactly how are you judging it? If viewed as a pay 2, draw 2 card at instant speed, almost any color deck could and many would play that. The only drawback is the discard. I have found that to rarely be an issue as I just dump the rest of my hand first. Normally by turn 4 or 5 I'm in top-deck mode anyway just like anyone else. Now I can get 2 more cards off the top of my deck. Sure, you run the risk of drawing lands, but that's the case with quantity over quality.
Now if you are viewing it the way most cards in Burn are viewed, how much damage did it deal for the amount of mana? Then of course it isn't going to look good, it doesn't deal damage. By that benchmark it would even be worse the Magma Jet which many people already don't like (I am not one of them). It will not speed up the clock as turn 3 is still the fastest you can win and it can not be used to cause a turn 3 kill. It only has a slightly better increase of playing a part in a turn 4 kill. What it does do is draw more cards and more cards means more damage which leads to increasing the likelihood of a kill starting on turn 5, often times because you cast Wager at the end of the opponent's turn going into your 5th turn. It is only a net gain of 1 more card but there have been lots of played cards in MTG that only gave you a net gain of 1 card.
So that is the question; do you expect it to give you more cards in hand in turns 4-6 so you can make up for the cards you discarded to black, had countered, lost because you had no choice but to nuke a Lackey, or just drew too many lands? Or do you just see it the way you see every other non-land card in Burn: a ratio of X Damage:Y Mana in which case it is not at all shocking people would find it underwhelming.
All those considerations are good in theory, and I have used those points in trying to fit it into the deck, but I try to make it as simple as possible: "could I have won the game if Dangerous Wager was instead the card(s) whose slots I gave it to?". The simple answer to this question was "yes", and that essentially meant that it lost me the games where that question was relevant.
Another minor consideration was the tempo loss of spending mana to draw two cards instead of playing a burn spell in the place of the draw spell. I've observed that the tempo loss happened too often (and also occasionally caused some losses), as we normally also try our best not to go past 3-4 lands in play.
I could imagine that your configuration would be able to benefit more from the card, given the more tempo-oriented nature of your build. That might indeed be the best way to utilize Dangerous Wager in a Burn Deck.
Kind Regards,
jares
I just tested a new burn build , dropping 4 flame rifts for 2 magma jets and 2 thunderous wrath..., also the creature base is just devil,lavamancer(obviously with fetchs 0 barbarian ring.),and Goblin guide , the results are awesome , the crude power of thunderous wrat and devil is like having ur deck with 8 or 9 price of progress.. magma jet is not that bad after all.. im starting to love the card
Good to hear positive results for the use of Thunderous Wrath. I did expect Magma Jet to surely be able to help, but I still worry about the probabilities of drawing into Thunderous Wrath in the opening hand without the possibility of getting it back into the deck; [1x] in the deck would provide an 11.67% probability, and [2x] in the deck would have a 22.15% probability - and these numbers go up if we were on the draw. Have you experienced the effect of these numbers first-hand?
You might also like to try a creature base with Hellspark Elemental rather than Grim Lavamancer (and with Barbarian Ring instead of Fetches), as a hasty creature could also potentially help in the situations where a mid-game Vexing Devil is played.
Kind Regards,
jares
I have been testing Thunderous Wrath in a U/R Delver build, and I must say that it has been very entertaining, at the very least. Unfortunately, I can't say the same for what I've been able to observe from its inclusion in Burn lists. In Burn, drawing it in your opening hand or drawing into it when you're not able to pay for it would automatically make the card dead (unless you eventually get to 6 mana); the same is untrue for the U/R Delver build, as the mere presence of Brainstorm is able to smooth-out the edges, not to mention that other cantrip effects are also able to increase the frequency of Miracles happening.
So far, I would say that Thunderous Wrath's inherent inconsistencies don't look very welcome in Burn, a deck that relies on each card being able to "do their business".
Cheers,
jares
Please let us know what happens if you get a chance to try it in mono-red. I do love it when testing agrees with theory.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
Hello burn thread! Just want to share my thoughts on some new cards based on our playtestings with my brother.
Thunderous Wrath's
Well, obviously this is not a good addition to a mono R one. In a U/R builds - yes on theory (or on paper). During the 1st 10 to 15 games using UR deck with 2 TW and 4 brainstorm as our only cantrip in it, the percentage of you aiming for a miracle is not that high. However, adding 4 ponder (that makes 8 cantrips or just simply at 6 cantrips) makes the percentage a little higher. BUT WHY focus on that miracle thing? You have bolts, chain, POP and snapcaster recycling burn spells. That's much easier than trying to fit this TW in the UR deck's style. I think TW fits more in a control type of deck where it abuses the likes of Jace TMS, brainstorm and sensei's divining top. So as for me, TW is a no for burn or UR deck.
Vexing Devil
Uhmmmm.... This dude is prone to spot removals and a bad top deck during crucial point of the game. But on the positive side, a 4/3 body is not bad especially if its up against any x/4 dudes and those 4/5 tarmogoyf or 5/5 KOTRs. But, seriously, how is he performing in your playtesing/ tournament esperiences? I'd like to convince myself before buying a set of it. Another, if, in any case, it fits you, what did you remove for him?
Thanks.
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TJB
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Devil only shines in sligh (i.e. 16 creatures that remain in table, counting heim, for instance 4x Guide + Lavamancer + Figure + Devil). This is what testing says to me so far.
Greetings,
Iñaki.-
If you're not in a rush, I would suggest that you wait for the price of Vexing Devil to go down, because I don't believe that it's a good enough card to be retailed at $15. As much as I've found it to be very good in Burn (and even in the U/R builds), it's a creature that has very limited use, and I've even found the $6 Goblin Guide to be better at doing Vexing Devil's job. At this point, my testing has shown me that its inclusion in Burn is indeed warranted, and that I'll eventually need to get my own set too.
Good luck kabayan.
Cheers,
jares
So far, I've found that randomly dealing 5 damage forPlease let us know what happens if you get a chance to try it in mono-red. I do love it when testing agrees with theory.is the bomb! But that's not really news for any of us is it?
Thunderous Wrath is really that kind of card for Burn - it's a high-risk, high-reward kind of card if used without the proper support. If you're willing to live with the probabilities of drawing into a dead card every so often, then that also means that you'll also have the probability of drawing a Miracle from time to time. Take note, though, that you're more likely to draw one in your opening hand than to draw into a Miracle during the game - this, in fact, is the summary of my findings, such that the probabilities work against you when "blindly" (i.e. not playing Brainstorm) playing into a Miracle (I can provide the mathematical basis for these findings, but that will take some time to write down).
Do let me know if anyone else might have had a different set of results that might be worth looking into.
Kind Regards,
jares
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