I've been a long time fan of Extract honestly, and along side the limited 1cc rfg cards out there, Snapcaster becomes another personal all time favorite of mine.Originally Posted by Vacrix
Extract doesn't much speak to me. Cast once, it only disrupts a small number decks relying on one or two cards. Cast twice, it can disrupt a little more, mess up Intuition plans, etc., but that's still a subset of decks and a significant resource investment (compared to, say, Cranial Extraction). Extract is card disadvantage, and it does nothing to cards your opponent already has in hand or graveyard.
Surgical Extraction completely nukes Intuition for everything except Progenitus (including Emrakul, since that's a trigger), esp. if cast EOT like it normally is. It's potentially card advantage (typically 2:1 post Intuition), strips cards from graveyard (which against many decks is tantamount to card advantage) and library. It's an instant. It combos great with discard effects as well as Snapcaster.
All that, and, it's free(*).
(*) May result in some loss of life.
I look at Extract as card information, you get to remove a card of your choice and you can look through your opponents library to see what your up against and what you can expect. A player that knows an opponents decktype can even determine a few cards that could or could not be in their hand as well. You're right that 1 or 2 hits won't majorly swing the game into your favor, but I feel that if you combine it with Snapcaster or Surgical Extraction, you would know how to best utilize your spells against your opponent.
You should be able to do this from seeing what your opponent does in his first few turns, no need to waste a card for that.
With surgical extraction you search graveyard, hand, and library...so you do not need to determinate: you SEE those cards!
In my opinion there is no way extract is better than surgical:
-cost equal or less
-is instant and not sorcery
-have a better effect
In your opponents first few games, the game can already be over. Not always the case, but it is in some. Information does a lot and not every decktype is exactly the same. Personally, I would rather take advantage of what I'm looking at and get rid of their card advantage (taking out Lingering Souls in the mirror or a copy of bomb card like Show and Tell, etc) Yes they may run 4 copies of said cards, but that's nailing a SnT before they can use it and I think that's great, otherwise it's more often then not, they play it and it's GG, next. The percentage of them drawing a card that you don't want to see reduced and that saves us a needed counter or answer before even needing to worry about it.
It's not game breaking, I agree, the card is not nuts, but in the long run, it's worth it's value. If my opponent is only running 1 copy of Scavenging Ooze and 4 copies of Green Sun's Zenith, I'd remove the Ooze and not have to worry about it. That's big I'd say.
What exactly does Gitaxian Probe do? 2 life, See opponents hand and draw a card. No one wants Probe just to pay 2 life and draw a card, seeing your opponents hand gives us information on how to play out the next few turns. Or as you say, just wait a few turns and hope they haven't established control at that point.
Information is valuable, that's all I'm trying to say.
I agree, never stated it Extract was better, it's just another option to consider.
If you have an opening hand with Surgical Extraction, the card is dead until a card in the graveyard. So not only is it dead at that point, but you must wait for them to play something relevant and wait for it go to the bin. Whether is be permanent or spell. Surgical Extraction is 10x better if you have an opening hand with a 1cc discard outlet. Extract by itself is useful. Understand where I am coming from?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying, OMG! We NEED to run 4x of this card! I'm saying give a test run and see if it truly is worthwhile to run or not with Snapcaster's.
I assume you meant "first few turns". If the game is over in the first few turns, your Extract was worse than worthless.
There's two big differences between Extract and Gitaxian Probe: (1) Probe tells you what's in the opponent's hand, and (2) as a cantrip, Probe replaces itself. Knowing what's in the opponent's hand is much more relevant than knowing what's in their deck. Not that the latter is worthless, but it's not as important, and there are other cards that achieve that same effect (i.e. Surgical Extraction). If you just want to know what's in their deck, you can surgically extract a fetchland or the first thing that lands in their yard.What exactly does Gitaxian Probe do? 2 life, See opponents hand and draw a card. No one wants Probe just to pay 2 life and draw a card, seeing your opponents hand gives us information on how to play out the next few turns. Or as you say, just wait a few turns and hope they haven't established control at that point.
Information is valuable, that's all I'm trying to say.
You're correct about Surgical Extraction and discard. You're wrong about Extract. I mean you can argue that just about any card is useful by itself, Chimney Imp, say. But that doesn't mean you want it in your deck. There are many other 1cc spells I'd rather see than Extract, whether it be Surgical Extraction, discard, Ponder, Brainstorm, even Gitaxian Probe. You can't have them all. And remember, the original assertion was that Extract is great with Snapcaster. Well, after the first casting, you already know the contents of their deck, so now youre just removing one more card (that's not in their hand). And as the game goes on, Extract only gets worse. All of those other alternatives offer much more value in multiples when flashedback.If you have an opening hand with Surgical Extraction, the card is dead until a card in the graveyard. So not only is it dead at that point, but you must wait for them to play something relevant and wait for it go to the bin. Whether is be permanent or spell. Surgical Extraction is 10x better if you have an opening hand with a 1cc discard outlet. Extract by itself is useful. Understand where I am coming from?
Are there some corner cases where an Extract can seal the game? Maybe. But thy are few and far between. It's not like a Show and Tell deck can't operate with one less Show and Tell or Intuition or Emrakul. They're just not that fragile. If you can remove all of some of those cards, however, including from their hand, and at instant speed, then you definitely have a leg up.
Yes, thank you for pointing that out the typo. Extract would prevent a combo person from going off, that 1 card then need to win is exiled.
Actually, the original assertion was:
As getting worse in the game, that's any discard in general. I do see the valid point in the debate though, the card just isn't up to snuff. I would still use it over Castigate though. The subject just went on longer then normal b/c someone agreed that in certain matchups, Extract could shine.
On the other hand, there a MANY cards that can shine in certain match ups that are not used. I suppose this just clears up a SCD: Extract.
So this weekend their is a legacy event and if my scedule allow it this is the deck I will I will be playing:
Lands 22
1-Swamp
1-Plains
1-Island
4-Marsh Flats
3-Polluted Delta
3-Underground Sea
2-Tundra
1-Scrubland
2-Glacial Fortress
1-Academy Ruins
1-Tolaria West
1-Karakas
1-Moorland Haunt
Cretures 7
4-Stoneforge Mystic
3-Snapcaster Mage
Spells 27
4-Sword to Plowshares
1-Path to Exile
4-Brainstorm
4-Force of Will
2-Daze
2-Spell Snare
1-Spell Pierce
2-Enlightened Tutor
3-Bitterblossom
3-Thopter Foundry
1-Humility
Artifacts 4
1-Umez Jitte
1-Batterskull
1-Sword of the Meek
1-Eng Exp
SB 15
2-Extirpate
1-Surg Extr
1-Grafdig Cage
1-COP:Red
1-Eng Expl
4-Dark Confidant
1-Spell Pierce
2-Flusterstorm
2-Innocent Blood
Pros: Really low mana curve. No Jaces or Cliques make it much more easier to avoid mana denial plans (stifle, wastelands and so).
-->ThoperCombo. A long forgotten combo that shines in todays "no combo" metagame. After a ten day testing I only lost once when I untapped with both pieces.
--> Doesn't rely so much οn Thopter (as counterbalance does) because it has bitterblossom+equipment.
--> Strong game against Maverick and other creature decks. Stands pretty good against MonoRed Burn (Can recover much easier from low life). Fights easy random decks like Pox/Enchantress, but needs testing for these matchups.
--> No wastelands plan help early curving while avoiding choke efects in G2/3. Adding more duals is optional but I use 6 as the minimum and haven't felt I really-really needed more.
Cons: Really bad match against BUG Control.
--> Thopter can be a dead card (vs Lingering Souls)
--> Enlightened Tutor+Force of Will is card disadvantage but still are way to good to cut. In G2/3 I try to fix this depending on what the opponent is playing.
--> Light vs dedicated combos, but that can change with other SB plans. It all comes done to what you are expecting.
--> Don't know what Miracles will do to the metagame. I really love TimeWalk2 but I don't have any at the moment.
Plz feel free to make any suggestions from experience (and not just random thoughts), and wish me good luck
4 stoneforge mystic
1 batterskull
1 umezawa's jitte
4 bitterblossom
4 lingering souls
4 force of will
4 spell snare
2 spell pierce
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
4 jace, the mindsculptor
4 tundra
2 underground sea
1 scrubland
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
1 marsh flats
2 island
1 plains
3 wasteland
TL;DR version: -1 Moorland Haunt, -1 Tolaria West, -3 Thopter Foundry, -1 Sword of the Meek, -1 Jace, +4 (or more) discard (IoK, Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy and/or Duress), +1-2 Intangible Virtue (you could even drop a Bitterblossom or 2 for them); maybe an additional -2-3 JTMs, -1-2 FoW, +4 Bobs main, +1-2 SDT, and then more room in sideboard (e.g. Perish, Zealous Persecution, Cursed Totem, etc.)
Moorland Haunt here is just awful. You have 7 creature cards in your whole deck, and this is a format where your guys will get exiled almost as often as they get killed. Haunt is just useless with that low a count. I've played around a bit with Haunt with some more creatures, and it's still bad. You really need a lot of creatures to make it worthwhile.
I'm not feeling the Tolaria West. Realisitically, you have 2 things mainboard that you can tutor for with it (Karakas and EE) and potentially one more EE from the board. Okay, there's Moorland Haunt and Academy Ruins, too, but bleh, those are rarely going to save your ass (which can be the case for Karakas and EE). Transmuting for 3 (2 blue!) at sorcery speed with so few legitimate targets just feels really bad; I think you really have to have more silver bullets to justify it (like Chalice of the Void, but obviously this deck isn't gonna want that).
If you're that afraid of Emrakul, run a 2nd Karakas, or (better, IMO), a Phyrexian Metamorph in the SB (or Phantasmal Image, but Metamorph is more versatile). It can kill Progenitus, Geist, and various other things that Karakas can't touch and that are out of reach for EE. The other week I used one to copy an Inkwell Leviathan against Reanimator and race to victory. (I also used one to copy a Batterskull against High Tide and race to victory, but I'm less proud of that, cause I didn't mean to board it in.)
Humility is good in a dedicated Thopter deck, but it nullifies your SFM and Snapcasters. I think it's not necessary, and you should consider other options. Even Moat might be a good alternative, if you know you can rely on the tokens, but you have to consider Sulfur Elemental and Dread of Night hindering those plans (for the Lingering Souls; Bitterblossom is a good defense, but its slow; I'll get to Thopter combo shortly). The common downside to both Humility and Moat is the double white, and (to a lesser extent) the 4cc. I'd consider Intangible Virtue. It's rarely expected, and even more rare for your opponent to have an answer for it, especially maindeck. It's 2cc and at 1 white, much easier to cast. The downside, of course, is that it ruins the Thopter Sword combo...
Which brings me to the Thopter Sword combo. I've tried to think of ways of fitting it in, at least maindeck to be sided out after G1, but I just can't do it. It's slow to put together, especially if you're not running a list dedicated to putting it together quickly. (E.g E-Tutor, Tezzeret, etc.). It gives you inevitability if you can keep it alive, but it's not a lock (unless maybe you also play Ashnod's Altar for instantly unbounded life/thopters). It's also easy to disrupt, especially if you only have the one Sword of the Meek and the one Academy Ruins. Maverick has all the tools to destroy that set up maindeck, with Qasali, Ooze (to remove your SotM before its trigger can resolve), KotR (to get a Wasteland for your Ruins), etc. Most decks these days have some form graveyard hate, which is relevant against Lingering Souls, too. And once they dismantle your combo, neither foundry nor SotM are that good by themselves (you may even have trouble getting the combo going if they destroy your SotM first and you have no other artifacts to sac to the foundry).
Thus, I would ditch the Thopter Sword as too cute (although, if you're gonna stick with Thopter Sword, I think Sword of Feast and Famine really shines here, cause it let's you untap to provide more fuel for the foundry). You're going to vividly remember those games where you unleashed an unstoppable army of Thopters, but don't let confirmation bias fool you: more often you're going to have a brick in your hand, or worse, you're going to invest a lot of time and resources into assembling the combo just to watch it be dismantled into its mediocre constituents.
In its place, add the most important thing black adds to the UW stoneblade list: discard. Discard is an awesome first-turn play (especially if you're on the play); it let's us tap out and play on curve more often, and it only gets better with Snapcaster. Inquisition, Thoughtseize, even Cabal Therapy are options given the number of tokens you'll have from Bitterblossom and Lingering Souls.
Also, 4 Jaces seems like 1 too many. And with 4 Bobs in the SB, it's more like 1-4 too many. You could get by dropping Jace altogether and moving Bob to be a starter, especially if you can fit some SDTs in. You could drop 1-2 FoW for those.
Update: Oops, looks like I got my lists confused wrt Jace. Move the Bobs to starting position. You have no reason not to.
Has anyone tried Sorin, Lord of Innistrad in this deck as a 1x or 2x?
Been running a list for the past few weeks that was derived from a combination of UW and a UWb list from one of the SCGs. Been posting pretty good results in local tournaments. Here is the list, would enjoy feedback or thoughts.
Lands: 21
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Scrubland
1 Riptide Laboratory
Creatures: 8
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Snapcaster Mage
Spells: 20
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lingering Souls
2 Spell Pierce
1 Vindicate
1 Zealous Persecution
Enchantments: 4
4 Bitterblossom
Artifacts: 5
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Chrome Mox
1 Batterskull
Planeswalkers: 2
2 Jace TMS
Sideboard:
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Thalia/Meddling Mage
2 Perish
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Diabolic Edict
1 PtE
1 Relic of Prog
The overall point here against most decks is inevitability with bitterblossom/lingering souls and jitte (edit: forgot to mention how good T1 Bitterblossom/SFM can be, as if we need to be reminded). I've had very positive results against RUG Delver as nimble mongoose is horrible at dealing with tokens and delver is just as bad. Yes they maybe able to get me to a low life total but pre board they really don't have anyway to interact with jitte, and STP is a fine way to deal with Delver. Goyf can be a bit of a problem (especially if they counter a Bitterblossom) but with STP and jitte one can grind the game out.
Combo isn't particularly good for this deck but it isn't horrible either. Cabal therapy + tokens put in some work here. Therapy slows them down a few turns which usually provides enough time to get BB active to turn on therapy flashback and Spellstutter Sprite. We are not favored game one but chrome mox is also a good tool to speed up the game plan and works well with Thalia or Meddling Mage out of the board.
I don't have a ton of Sneak and Show decks in my meta but I imagine that would be a problem and is also why I'd prefer meddling mage in the board. Other than random combo the other tough match up is Maverick.
To the previous post, I've tried Sorin in this version and I didn't like him in the deck at all. I think the main reason I don't like him is because I already have enough token producers, the tokens from Sorin don't have evasion, and he just doesn't have a big enough board impact right away like Jace can. In decks where they have ways to deal with tokens (i.e. Sulfur elemental, EE, Deed) it's seemed even worse.
I played Sorin a couple weeks here at a local. He was really good in the aggro matches for the chump blockers and life gain. Also, the black tokens were relevant in match ups that sided in Sulfur Elemental or Dread of Night. However, that hate seems to have dropped off the radar.
Per your list, I've found I never want more than 3 Bitterblossoms, because they usually seem to be dead cards in multiples. I realize some people run them as a 4x though, because it's a really good two drop you want to maximize seeing on turn two.
I think that a 3-of for BB is possible but I ALWAYS want to see it by turn two, Ideally turn one with a chrome mox which is pretty tough to beat for most decks. Also multiples of BB can always be pitched to CMox if necessary. Bottom line for this build is that BB needs to get active in order to win. SFM is obviously really good but most match ups where it shines people have removal for it MD whereas they don't for enchantments.
I think with BB and a lack of other creatures Sorin is poorly placed in this deck. Ideally I'd want to use him in a deck that has more than 9 creatures. I think BB takes care of the diversity for white creature hate, and I've found that right now MOM is more of a reason to have two different colored creatures than the RUG sideboard.
CMox is also an all-star, I've probably got a 80%-90% winrate in games where I get a T1 BB or SFM (if I can untap with it).
Hi everyone
Has this thread died? Esper seems alive and kicking!
Perhaps the discussion has moved to the Blade Control thread in DTB?
I would love to discuss Esper since I strongly considering it for GP Gent.
Thanks.
QFT, my friend has been thinking of building an esperblade deck. Does anyone has an updated decklist? Thanks!
I am testing this list atm:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...anta-12th.html
\\Main
\\Artifacts
1 Batterskull
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte
\\Creatures
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
\\Instants
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
\\Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
\\Sorceries
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
\\Lands
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Dust Bowl
4 Flooded Strand
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Riptide Laboratory
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
\\Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
1 Intuition
1 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Lingering Souls
1 Perish
1 Vindicate
1 Wrath of God
I really like it, maybe I will make some modifications and bring it to GP gent, dunno yet.
I like the looks of it, and Ben's explanations, for everything except the Dust Bowl (and maybe the Riptide... I know its great in theory with Clique and Snapcaster, but I've rarely found it all that great in practice; maybe if you're running Spellstutters and Mutavaults...
I realize Dust Bowl presents a continual threat, but 4 mana (3 mana + 1 virtual mana from the Dust Bowl itself) seems so high. I'd just make that a Wasteland (and probably make the Riptide a Wasteland too), and find a way to move the Vindicate into the main deck. That should be enough to deal with problematic lands.
I am thinking of maindecking EE as well but i am playing lingering souls. Not sure if it will be counterintuitive though.
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