You can respond to the trigger by cracking a fetch. Once the trigger resolves, you can't crack a fetch. Just be sure to be clear to your opponent what is happening, and don't get caught in a situation where you pass priority without fetching, or a pedantic opponent will call you on it (once you pass priority and they pass priority, you can't fetch anymore).
As for Firespout, howabout Bonfire of the Damned instead? More mana intensive, but it's one-sided, hits all creatures (sans protection) and is actually castable without miracle, and splashable with its solitary R requirement.
We actually don't care about our opponents' life totals until the point we're in complete control - so the damage to the face doesn't matter. Furthermore, it's off color and doesn't get those bothersome fatties. I don't see how BofD will find a home in any Legacy archetype.Originally Posted by matunos
"Bonfire of the Damned deals X damage to target player and each creature he or she controls."
Any deck that would be considering Firespout (which was the question to which I was responding) is on color for BotD.
Granted, BotD is un-flashbackable, practically speaking.
I think this deck needs a change up to survive in the current meta. No Stoneblade at all the the t16. Another card I've found to be great in the board is timely reinforcements. I feel that this deck has a hard game against burn or hyper fast ur delver decks. Timely is a very good flashbackable bomb.
Since I already main 2 paths, I'll the following creature busting suit:
2 Terminus
2 Timely
2 Wrath
I run a red splash and md use 4 stp, 2 EE (with academy), and 2 forked bolt. Out of the board I have 1 terminus, 1 wog, 1 path to exile. I haven't had to play against burn but against delver and maverick this seems to be sufficient. Timely is an interesting thought though, the problem is that much like lingering souls, timely doesn't actually do anything but stall a turn or two. Sometimes that is good enough, a lot of the time that doesn't actually help all that much. Perhaps the life gain would make the difference though.
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
I've tested TR and found it okay. With the surge of super-fast Aggro it's a viable SB option.
And yes the 6 life do make a significant difference.
@ matunos:
obviously I'm aware of the damage BotD deals to creatures.. I don't see any advantage over Terminus whatsoever and it is off-(UW)-color, meaning chances are your R sources don't exist when you draw it (Wasteland), which sucks cause you'll have a hard time setting it up again.
How does your manabase look? Actually, could I see your list? I run the red splash too and I want to see how other lists look. I don't run any splash MD right now, but I like the idea of Forked Bolts. Do you find them strong enough?
MD I run:
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
2 JTMS
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Forked Bolt
2 Ponder
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Spell Pierce
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded STrand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Plains
4 Island
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Karakas
Sideboard:
2 Disenchant
1 Terminus
1 Wrath of God
1 Path to Exile
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Blue Elemental Blast
I'm thinking about cutting the riptide lab for a palteau and cutting a disenchant for a second blue elemental blast in the board. Beyond that the list has been treating me well. Forked bolt has been very helpful against maverick, rug, and lingering souls.
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
No Spell Snare? I think you need at least 2-3. I'd rather have that over Counterspell/Ponder. And no Wastelands? I think Riptide/Karakas/Academy could be Wastelands, especially since Cavern of Souls is a card now. I play all 4 in UW because Cavern is really good against us.
Also, winning games due to mana screwing opponents/ trading lands with opponents if I'm flooding is always good. Karakas/Riptide/Academy are more situational, but that's my opinion.
How has Elsepth been working for those of you that are running her? I've always played 4-Jace/0-Elspeth and have always been pretty happy. Having a body to carry equipment hasn't really been too much of an issue (4 Snap, 4 SFM, 2 Mishra's Factory, 2 Clique, 2 Geist creature suite).
Pierce and counterspell do more then snare, snare seems to only answer cards we already can answer. I don't like wasteland for a multitude of reasons. One I'm running ee x2 main and forked bolts so cavern really doesn't do much, I've only seen it played in goblins which I don't have issues with. I also dislike it because mana screwing people is not what this deck wants to do, it wants top cast jace and elspeth reliably. Thirdly I'm running 23 land...running wastes requires a 24th and probably a crucible in the sb to be truly valuable.
Elspeth is awesome against the mirror and against rug/mav. I'd play at least one MD.
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
For UW, is the standard equipment suite 1 Batterskull + 1 Jitte? Or are people also playing 1 Sword of XYZ in addition to Jitte and Batterskull? I suppose I could cut a SoFaF and run an Elspeth (definitely not cutting my 4th Jace).
I'd cut a jace, 5 planeswalkers is a lot. I'm testing an alternate sideboard with more to do against sneaky show and testing sulfur elemental to beat mom and lingering souls.
2 sulfur elemental 3 reb 1 disenchant 1 terminus 1 spell pierce 3 surgical 1 tormods crypt 1 blue blast 2 meddling mage
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
Sulfur Elemental is insane. Very very good.
My UW build as of today:
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland
To me, the only flex spots would be cutting 1-2 creatures and cutting the SoFaF which could give me 2-3 more slots for something else (more removal/sweepers, more countermagic, etc).
I dislike 4 fow especially along side 3 Pierce. I think you could cut a fow, the sofaf, and yes a jace or two. Jace is just very mediocre against rug and.mav and lingering souls is decent at killing jace as well. In a wasteland heavy Meta you don't want too many 4 drops. I really dislike geist without elspeth, especially if you cut sofaf. If you don't want to splash a color I'd add two path to exile to this MD. That being said a splash and playing engineered explosives is very worth it. And as I said previously I'm.not a fan of wasteland but if you are running them I'd play a crucible in the 75 as well.
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
Contrary to popular belief, Elspeth is not great against delver. She needs double white and against a flying delver, she does nothing. Also simply blocking a goose/Goyf everyturn is underwhelming. Stoneblade is not very aggro, so her added damage is not too useful. She is only really good against other decks with Jace because she can kill jace.
Jace IMO is better as the 4th walker. He pitches to force against combo, extras can be brainstorm away, he bounces delvers/dudes and most importantly he draws cards. I've found that when I get an Elspeth to stick, she is not game. She chumps for a while then gets killed when they flood with dudes. Her + 3/+ 3 is also not very impressive because we are unlikely to win any damage race. Jace makes a much bigger splash.
Even if he gets killed, a few bounces/brainstorms can put you ahead indefinitely. Elspeth at best for me makes my batterskull a flying scary lifelinker, but often, she soaks a bunch of damage, then dies. Jace bounces and creates tempo. Then helps me draw into answers to control the game, and finally fateseals and ultis for the finishing touch.
My 2 cents.
Between bolt, flying delvers, unbounceable mongeese, and rebs post board I don't see how you are keeping jace on the table against rug. He is a 4 mana brainstorm or a 4 mana unsummon against that deck and then promptly dies most times. Elsepth is a planeswalker most rug players will try to get off the table quickly. Between her ability to give chump blockers and her high loyalty right from the start this will at least take a few turns unless their hand is nuts in which case you were losing with either planeswalker. Double white is not an issue when you build your mana base accordingly, I run 7 basics as well as 4 white producing duals and a karakas. I actually end up siding out my jaces often versus rug and maverick. Just my opinion of course but for me jace always seems very low impact and dies quickly unless I'm already ahead on board in which case either planeswalker will win the game.
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
Elspeth also offers a quick way for Stoneblade to close a game that's within reach. Jumping a Batterskull or even a Snapcaster Mage 2 turns in a row can often be all you need to win. Getting in one hit with a 7/7 Batterskull and having a 5 loyalty Elspeth on the table to boot is going to be backbreaking against any aggro deck. Not to mention the fact that she spits out dudes when all you have left is equipment. Jace doesn't help you much there.
It's true that she can be somewhat low-impact when they have flyers that are beating you down, but RUG only runs 4 Delvers and Elspeth happily blocks the other 66% of their threats while you dig for further answers. The reason she is so good is that she often requires multiple cards/turns from your opponent to get her off the table when you are behind, and when you're at parity or ahead she can simply take over the game.
To each their own, I started with 4 Jace, loved it. Tried 3/1 split, felt weak to me, as I always felt I prefered Jace over Elspeth whenever I drawed her. Too many situations where I felt, "man if this was a Jace, I would have closed this out ages ago instead of chumping to infinity". Maybe I played against too many delver decks, who knows. I've gone back to 4 and Jace hasn't let me down yet.
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