[DTB] Sneak Attack

[Deez_Naughts]

From my testing I felt not very good about the Maverick matchup, which does not really fit to the picture that i often read which suggests it is very much in our favour.

My feeling is that a skilled maverick opponent can get an edge over us:
Things I am facing:

- I don't want to Show&Tell into Emrakul and hope they don't have knight. I think it's a bad play, so the combo is weakened by the fact that you have to show&tell into Griselbrand and then win with the 7 cards you draw with sneak attack. If that happens Turn 2 we should be ok, life total is an issue since they can attack exhalted and setting up the sneak attack board wipe is also not that easy.

- The problem with the sneak attack plan is that they have "endless" pridemages, which not only messes with the blood moon plan, but it is pretty easy for them to setup knight (-> karakas) and pridgemage. That forces you to have Sneak attack + 2 activations for Emrakul in 1 turn. This 6 mana (3 RED mana!!) can be quite a lot. If they have Thalia out and/or use Knight to get wastelands this can become quite challenging!

I do not have any solutions yet, but I want to bring it up to discussion since you should be very well prepared for that matchup going to a larger tournament in Europe.

The matchup overall is favourable, the game plan is counter their Knight and GSZ.

As for the Show and Tell/Knight, unfortunately they either have it or don't, this should not stop you from combo'ing as fast as possible. You only have two plays, Sneak/Show, and you are going to win or lose based on those linear plays.

[Final Fortune]

This archetype is in now way control, it is an extremely linear combo deck. Given the limited amount of threats that actually interact with our deck, our main target is disruption cards. In the case of Storm, you should know exactly what to counter, such as LED, Wish, Ad Nauseum, and shut them down.

Given the aforementioned, I really feel some people are completely over evaulating cards like Flusterstorm, and *gulp* Dispel, while under evaluating cards like Daze, Spell Pierce, and MisD.

I'm not going to elaborate on cards like Daze, Pierce, and MisD, other than to say the our most important turns are 1 through 4, and having a cheap and free counter suite is absolutely critical.

Every deck is the control deck when they are facing Storm, and Misdirection does absolutely nothing to prevent the opponent from winning before you can resolve your threats. I don't think being able to Misdirect an Orim's Chant or Duress is much of an argument either, you're trading two for one or two for two at best and that's only when they bother to disrupt you. Otherwise you're eating a Tendrils to the face for 20 while you stare at Misdirection blankly.

Daze is fairly bad in a deck trying to reach 3+ mana and who resolves threats that disregard board position, and I don't think there's really any important difference between Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm, honestly I play all 8 copies of both between the MD and SB anyway but whichever you play MD isn't that big of a deal.

[catmint]

Are you thinking that we have a bad storm matchup Final Fortune? We have a ton of counterspells (4 FoW, 3-4 Pierce/Flusterstorm) and a very fast kill or at least the ability to draw into a ton of cards. Misdirecting a Duress or an Orim's chant is also a very good play... what are you complaining about? That we not always trading 2 for 2 but sometimes 2 for 1? Does that matter...? not really an attrition matchup is it? Anyway misdirection is an awesome card to win counter wars vs. RUG/UW and has a great upside to fight edict/discard/burn.

I would rather discuss the Maverick matchup (see my previous post) which is way more problematic and common.

[wizard_of_gore]

I would rather discuss the Maverick matchup (see my previous post) which is way more problematic and common.

I can agree with your statement. 40-50 % time i cast show and tell, maverick puts KOTR. Which means he puts you back to 1-2 turn. Sneak attack is to slow then since after fetching karakas, KOTR usualy starts fetching wastelands and lock us out with thalia. Even drawing 7 with grislebrand in situation when you put it with S&T (and oponent respond with KOTR), sometimes is not enough to gain all you need to proceed to win. Irony is that maverick players complain about Sneak show because they don't play force of will and have hard time against sneak show. They want to beat everything in meta with green and white. Bastards :)

[JPA]

misdirecting a duress

Judge! :D

[catmint]

yeah... got me with the duress

Good to have someone with a similar experience wizard_of_gore. I wonder if Phillips approach with Needle is best. I had the idea before but did not really test it. The big advantage is that you can play it "naturally" befor the combo without wasting mana or a turn as you would with blood moon. Also needle can shut off pridemage which is just a awesome for the sneak attack plan. Needle cannot really replace blood moon in the SB, however I could beat Esper & RUG many times without drawing it. I suppose the needle plan gets better if all kinds of Terminus or counterbalance decks become more popular.

[Einherjer]

I am not sure which 3 cards to squeeze into my sideboard. Blood Moon disappointed me yesterday, as it shut me down aswell. With Needle I have an option that hits Pridemage OR Karakas and just costs one and it DOES NOT hinder myself. Ill do some additional Maverick-testing before my tournament and decide after this... As I do not expect alot other MUs where BloodMoon is good I might take Needle as it is good vs the named Doomsday (naming Top/LED).
If I can motivate my brother to a test-session you can await further information this evening!

Greetings

[wizard_of_gore]

I am not sure which 3 cards to squeeze into my sideboard. Blood Moon disappointed me yesterday, as it shut me down aswell. With Needle I have an option that hits Pridemage OR Karakas and just costs one and it DOES NOT hinder myself. Ill do some additional Maverick-testing before my tournament and decide after this... As I do not expect alot other MUs where BloodMoon is good I might take Needle as it is good vs the named Doomsday (naming Top/LED).
If I can motivate my brother to a test-session you can await further information this evening!

Greetings

Pithing needle is a CARD! :D but naming LED with it won't solve problem because it can't stop mana abilities.

Btw., i found playing against maverick, needling a karakas is best thing you can do, and ASAP. Save your counterspells against qasali / GSZ and you are probably going to win. At the time you want play blood moon - you should be playing show and tell, so pithing needle is maybe better than blood moon, and it's faster. Sneak attack is a little bit to slow - they have time to establish position, and find various answers that will put obstacles in your way. It's still favorable matchup for us, but not SO EASY like everyone says....

[Final Fortune]

Yeah, I'd say the Storm match is unfavorable albeit not horribly so, and the more you rely on linear counters like Misdirection and Dispel the worse the match up gets.

[rxavage]

Flusterstorm is better than Spell Pierce in this deck. Consider this:

You cast Show&Tell, then the opponent responds with spell pierce, if you pierce the opponents pierce he will only have to pay 2 but if you respond with Flusterstorm he has to pay 3 and thats the minimum. Flusterstorm wins counterwars. Our only concerns should be resolving S&T or SneakAttack.

[Deez_Naughts]

Every deck is the control deck when they are facing Storm, and Misdirection does absolutely nothing to prevent the opponent from winning before you can resolve your threats. I don't think being able to Misdirect an Orim's Chant or Duress is much of an argument either, you're trading two for one or two for two at best and that's only when they bother to disrupt you. Otherwise you're eating a Tendrils to the face for 20 while you stare at Misdirection blankly.

Daze is fairly bad in a deck trying to reach 3+ mana and who resolves threats that disregard board position, and I don't think there's really any important difference between Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm, honestly I play all 8 copies of both between the MD and SB anyway but whichever you play MD isn't that big of a deal.

I'm sorry but this is not true, against Storm we need to combo ASAP, while having an active Daze, Pierce, or FoW to stop their 0cmc mana accelerants. Moreover, if you combo out a quick Griselbrand, it's almost impossible for them to win.

If your sitting back allowing them to develop mana, and draw cards, while hoping to simply sculpt a "control" hand, your playing the match wrong.

Also, FoW'ing or MisD'ing a Duress, Inquizition, or Thoughtseize is a fine play if it keeps an active combo intact.

As for Flusterstorm, I really feel this card is sub-optimal for Sneak and Show, and by and large Legacy as a whole. Not being able to stop artifacts, enchantments, PW's or creatures is very relevant, especially in a large open event. This card simply plays so differant in a format like Vintage, where generally every Sorcery or Instant is a bomb on its own merit. Legacy is very diverse, and choosing narrow cards like Flusterstorm is, IMO, sub-optimal. Overall, I just see no reason to run Flusterstorm outside of closed local meta game, where you have information you can use to affect card selection.


I have tested this deck like crazy within my Eternal team, and run it in three Mox tournaments and won 2 and top 8'd the other. Out of the aforementioned, my conclusions have always been that the counter suite should be comprised of Daze, Spell Pierce, MisD, FoW, and REB out of the board. Each serves an important function, but culminate in forcing through the combo, as cheaply as possible. This deck is amazing in terms of early game power, but so bad as the turns progress due to the linear game plan. This is why cards like Intuition are sooooooo good, as you need to own turns 1-4.

[Final Fortune]

I'm sorry but this is not true, against Storm we need to combo ASAP, while having an active Daze, Pierce, or FoW to stop their 0cmc mana accelerants. Moreover, if you combo out a quick Griselbrand, it's almost impossible for them to win.

If your sitting back allowing them to develop mana, and draw cards, while hoping to simply sculpt a "control" hand, your playing the match wrong.

Also, FoW'ing or MisD'ing a Duress, Inquizition, or Thoughtseize is a fine play if it keeps an active combo intact.

As for Flusterstorm, I really feel this card is sub-optimal for Sneak and Show, and by and large Legacy as a whole. Not being able to stop artifacts, enchantments, PW's or creatures is very relevant, especially in a large open event. This card simply plays so differant in a format like Vintage, where generally every Sorcery or Instant is a bomb on its own merit. Legacy is very diverse, and choosing narrow cards like Flusterstorm is, IMO, sub-optimal. Overall, I just see no reason to run Flusterstorm outside of closed local meta game, where you have information you can use to affect card selection.


I have tested this deck like crazy within my Eternal team, and run it in three Mox tournaments and won 2 and top 8'd the other. Out of the aforementioned, my conclusions have always been that the counter suite should be comprised of Daze, Spell Pierce, MisD, FoW, and REB out of the board. Each serves an important function, but culminate in forcing through the combo, as cheaply as possible. This deck is amazing in terms of early game power, but so bad as the turns progress due to the linear game plan. This is why cards like Intuition are sooooooo good, as you need to own turns 1-4.

I pretty much disagree with almost everything you've just said regarding the Storm match up and the deck in general, but it's really simple logic that if your opponent has a faster fundamental turn than you do then your first objective is to not die and not to be the second one to combo out.

I have no problem with Misdirection being in the deck, I just have a problem with Misdirection being a 4x in the deck because even your disruption becomes linear at that point and it can't even address half of the cards you've just mentioned vs. Storm anyway.

[catmint]

From my experience the storm matchup is pretty good. Daze was not very good in my testing. Doing it before the combo turn sets as back and taxing for 1 during the combo does not get it done.

Did anyone ever put some thought into how bad the MU are in number and how a specific SB choice changes that?

I was bored so I put an excel together. The numbers in there (hopefully) reflect my local meta :), but the MU% and how SB choices affect it are just a first rough estimate.

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/9...sbstrategy.png

Would be nice to have your input on the numbers and of course just PM me your e-mail and I'll send you the excel.

[Einherjer]

Pithing needle is a CARD! :D but naming LED with it won't solve problem because it can't stop mana abilities.

Got me aswell! Haha

Yeah I will definitely take Needle to the tournament and will report you back on Sunday evening.

By the way, Flusterstorm is not a bad card. Daze is. I think we have gone trough this so many times its just not worth repeating it again...we all know the pros/cons for each counter and we are not going to convice those who think Flusterstorm/Daze is pro and Flusterstorm/Daze(choose what you didnt choose earlier) is bad... Let's just be it like:"Its a decision of personal play-style!"

Greetings

[Deez_Naughts]

Got me aswell! Haha

Yeah I will definitely take Needle to the tournament and will report you back on Sunday evening.

By the way, Flusterstorm is not a bad card. Daze is. I think we have gone trough this so many times its just not worth repeating it again...we all know the pros/cons for each counter and we are not going to convice those who think Flusterstorm/Daze is pro and Flusterstorm/Daze(choose what you didnt choose earlier) is bad... Let's just be it like:"Its a decision of personal play-style!"

Greetings

Daze is not "bad", this is simply misinformation.

[catmint]

Why do you think daze is good?
Being set back before the combo is a very good argument. Daze can be useful against RUG in a counterwar, but even in this matchup you can take some turns to find double-triple counterbackup. But by doing so they can make land drops to pay for daze. Against UW I find daze to be too weak.

[rxavage]

Why do you think daze is good?
Being set back before the combo is a very good argument. Daze can be useful against RUG in a counterwar, but even in this matchup you can take some turns to find double-triple counterbackup. But by doing so they can make land drops to pay for daze. Against UW I find daze to be too weak.

Why would you be using daze before the combo? Our counters are used to protect our Combo. We are the beatdown, there is no reason the be countering anything before dropping S&T or SA. In this deck flusterstorm is better than spell pierce, I would go as far to say that in THIS DECK daze is better than spell pierce; considering our only concern is resolving S&T and SA. Winning counter wars is what matters. Which is why I moved pierce to sb and put daze mb. I may even try and get 2 more flusterstorm to replace pierce completely.



CREATURES 8
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

SPELLS 28
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Flusterstorm
2 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Intuition

ARTIFACTS 4
4 Lotus Petal

LANDS 20
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain

SIDEBOARD :

3 Blood Moon
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 REB
2 Echoing Truth
2 Pyroclasm
2 Spell Pierce <--- possibly flusterstorm

[menace13]

Storm is not that common of a match up right now. If your local meta has storm decks all over the place: play RUG.

If you don't like Daze replace it with Pierce/Fluster/REB/whatever you like.

My counter suite would be 4 Misdirect 4 FoW 3 Daze(you can play Pierce or Fluster here). I like Daze, but that's just me. It is one of the few counters against Maverick that can be spent for value(or in other agrro match ups too).

Show and Tell into Sneak Attack with a red mana open beats them showing a KotR.

4 Misdirection is the goods right now. Only things that matter are counterspells on SnT/Sneak. The deck wins by resolving one spell. Misdirect is fow 5 through 8 which means you wont really have to dig for them.

You cannot Misdirect Duress but IoK/Sieze are great targets and that is a 2 for 2.

[Einherjer]

Ive done 50 sideboarded-games against Maverick. Even though this number may not be fully enough it provides atleast a few numbers.
I played 25 with Blood Moon and 25 with Pithing Needle.
I boarded as following:
-2 Intuition
-2 Flusterstorm
-1 Misdirection
+2 Spell Pierce
+3 Blood Moon/Pithing Needle

BloodMoon Games:
11 won
14 lost

PithingNeedle Games:
16 won
9 lost

The conclusion I(!) take is that Needle is definitely better in the Maverick-MU alone. And I will take it to my local tournament, but I cannot say for sure if its the way to go for a biig tourney like GP, which I will attend aswell..

Greetings

And btw...You may say Flusterstorm is bad, but I am now allowed to say Daze is bad? We have a little communication-problem here hu? But as mentioned above, it's useless to discuss this again..

[catmint]

Thanks Phillip. Was your opponent a competent Maverick player? Do I know him?

Very good info.. thx a lot. You do not happen to know how many pre / postboard games you won/lost with the different configurations? WOuld provide more value for the excel sheet.