[DTB] Sneak Attack

[menace13]

Blood Moon was interesting, but I think it's better in the sideboard. Eight cantrips isn't enough with only 2 Intuition. I'd prefer more cantrips to more Intuition, as you want to be casting unfair cards as early as possible. Sneak Attack was always the safer option given a choice. Sideboard could use a tweak - Cages were good, Firespout is fine but maybe Pyroclasm could be useful. Pyros/Spell Pierce is a good mix.

Here's what I'll be testing within the next week:


4 Sneak Attack
4 Show and Tell
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul the Aeon's Torn

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
2 Intuition

4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce

4 Lotus Petal
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Volcanic Island
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

SB:
4 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Firespout
3 Pyroblast
3 Blood Moon
3 Echoing Truth

Cheers!

2 Volcanics has hindered me more than running 3 or more when I need to cast and use Sneak against Wastelands.

Your loss to UR Delver in game 1 was because Pierce would fail on Leak? The 4th Misdirection is more important for resolving Sneak/Show than Daze and Pierce.

I would go with 3 Cliques in board for added measure against blue bringing the number to 6 cards post board with Rebs.

[Water_Wizard]

Nice to see all the activity! Here we come DTB :)

I'm advocating Daze/Flusterstorm over Misdirection. My current counter-suit is 4 FOW, 2 Spell Pierce, 2 Flusterstorm, 2 Daze. Let me explain:

Daze - I like it because it hits anything and it also fits into the "quickness plan."
Flusterstorm - mainly because I face a fair amount of Storm in my meta.
Pierce - hits Walkers and the occasional pesky artifact.

I stopped running Misdirection due to a) it's limited uses (only hits other spells) and b) the fact it needs another blue card. The second effect is the largest reason why I cut it.

I prefer to have 2 counters in order to go off (sometimes one is enough). However, if I am going to have 2 counters plus business, that requires 6 cards if I am using FOW/Misdirection. What blue cards am I going to be holding? Pierce- I would most likely use it, Cantrips - I most likely used them to sculpt my hand. S&T - I'm most likely going to use it to combo.

I like Misdirection, but 2/3 Misdirection with 4 FOW requires too many blue cards in hand. Considering most of our blue cards are designed to build or implement the combo, I just had too many hands where I had 2 pitch counterspells and not enough blue cards.

The decision to run both FOW/Misd is one of the strongest reasons to run Progenitus, in my opinion. Does anyone know why Eli Kassis still continues to run Progenitus? Fear of Karakas/STP?

[Deez_Naughts]

No question that Leyline is better than divert. The questions I brought up for discussion is:

Sure Leyline is just freaking awesome versus Nic Fit, Junk and BW, Belcher,... but the question is how much of the meta is running these decks and how much of a game do we have without the Leylines. And therefore shouldnt we maybe play more sideboard slots for the maverick, rug, mirror, reanimator, Humility decks or whatever?

And Re: Burn.
Last 10+ Matches I played I did not loose a single one. Maybe a couple of game losses overall. All without Leyline. If you beat Burn also with Leyline, so be it. But that matchup is not relevant if to SB Leyline or not. Divert a bolt t otheir lavamancer/guide/marauder and tell me again it does nothing against burn.

I'm not sure what you consider testing, but to say LoS should not be brought in against burn, yet state a card like Divert is somehow as good or better, is absurd.

Agreed. The Burn-MU is nothing we really have to worry about. But I was posting this post because you wrote something that's completly wrong.

You said:"- Regarding combo (Feeeze/Tendrils) its irrevelvant that it stops those cards, the point is they must invest resources in removing it. Their combo is more intricate, ours is two cards...."
It is just as wrong as you could get it. Let's take 2 decks - say HighTide and DoomsDay... Neither of these decks really care about bouncing eoT or putting a bounce into their pile. One Leyline costs us much more. It costs us a secure land-drop each turn. It costs us our whole consistent combo as we have to mull for it.

Honestly, I would never board in Leyline vs Combo. I might board it against BUG - but therefore we have BloodMoon right?

Greetings

I'm not sure you understand the importance of resource denial in the Storm match up. I will reiterate, LoS against Storm is not to prevent their kill condition, it is to force them to use resources and a turn(s) to setup removing this roadblock, while at the same time shutting off targeted discard (ANT), and also having them have to contend with counters and our fast clock. Furthermore, you never mulligan into LoS in the Storm match-up, unless the hand in and of itself warrants a mulligan, but this should be common sense in an explosive deck like ours.

I read some good content from a lot of (probably) smart people. And we all agree that Leyline is superstrong in certain matchups. But unfortunately nobody is talking about the "Gretchenfrage" aka crucuial question. Is it currently worth it to use 4 SB slots or should we focus on different things because we do have "ok" game anyway against the decks we board leyline.

IMO, it is correct to have 4 SB slots devoted to such a catch all type of card.

IMO, any SB should be built on this model:

4 Leyline of Sanctity
0-4 Grave Hate
2-3 Bounce Spells
0-3 Moon Effect(s)
2-3 Control Slots (Pierce, REB, Pyro, Flusterstorm)
0-2 Tech Slots (Clique, Through the Breach)
X Meta Game Slots

Addressing the above considerations, we have a very effective SB.

Not saying that I am going to be running it, but that it got me thinking. Thought about the games I have lost with a sneak attack out after swinging with an Emrakul where I was unable to find a 2nd creature in time (doesn't happen often but it has happened). Also thought about the time I cast T2 show and tell and put out Griselbrand while my opponent put out Emrakul.

And I imagine that with his 4x intuitions plus the noxious revival and snapcaster in his board he could just intuition for whatever he needed without having to worry about surgical extraction. Which while costing 5 mana, 2 life and losing your draw seems like a lot to me, I still found it interesting.

I didn't mean to imply anything, rather it's a cute SB but seems a little sketchy.

Though, I admit, his design is creative and innovative, turning his Intuitions into mini-pseudo Gifts Ungiven, which is spicy. However, this SB plan leaves you wide open to extraction. Also, his post board Intuition pile will almost always be; Snappy/Revival/X (to ensure he always gets his desired one of), which you should be giving him the Snappy and forcing him to invest another 2 mana and life to get his card.

[Water_Wizard]

I also like LoS versus Burn. Burn has not been an auto-win for me. I've lost to burn a few times - a good burn hand can kill you on turn 4-5. If they have the play, even a turn 3 monster is sometimes not enough to beat them. Furthermore, on the draw, I've had turn 2 Emmy wipe their board (2 LP, 1 CoT, Land), only to have them bounce back and ping me away.

Philip Dickman's Blue Blasts and Pyroclasms are bad. He was in a rush before the tournament and copied McDarby's sideboard from last week. I tried to give him my sideboard, but they were literally putting up seatings as I was doing this, so he was unable to upgrade. Don't play Blue Blast or Pyroclasm.

I was actually running BEB, but it was for Burn (it didn't help much, in most situations, a SP or Flusterstorm is just as good). As an aside, McDarby said Pyroclasm was bad in his Top 8 Legacy Profile.

My biggest problem with LoS is what to side out. Bringing in 7 cards (4 LoS and 3 REB/Pyroblast) is difficult. I know the obvious answer is 2 Intution, 4 Lotus Petal, and a cantrip or Daze if you are on the draw. However, I want Lotus Petal in my deck against fast decks. For example, if I am playing Storm, Burn, Belcher, I want at least 3 Lotus Petals in my deck to improve my speed and improve my chances of a Griselbrand->Lotus Petal->Emmy of off a Sneak Attack. Against slower decks, like UW, BUG Control, etc., it is easy to cut Lotus Petal, because we have more time to sculpt our hand and win a counter war.

[Water_Wizard]

What do we side in/out versus Maverick?

In a meta where I expect Maverick, RUG, and BUG, I would surely include Blood Moon in my 75 (I would include it main if I expected 50% or more of my matches to be against these decks).

Blood Moon is also good against Storm and Dredge, although it can be too late if they have a strong hand. Storm can rely on artifact mana and Dredge can go manaless after they start the dredging process.

Assuming Blood Moon in in the sideboard, an using a sideboard constructed like this:
4 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Firespout
3 Pyroblast
3 Blood Moon
3 Echoing Truth

(and using Koby's updated mainboard, below), I would go:
-3 Misdirection
-4 Lotus Petal
-1 Preordain
+3 Blood Moon
+3 Echoing Truth
+2 Firespout
(assuming we won the first match)

I think Spell Pierce is still relevant for GSZ and Choke with FOW hits the following 2 and KotR.

I assume Maverick is bringing in Choke in this match-up?

[Water_Wizard]

2 Volcanics has hindered me more than running 3 or more when I need to cast and use Sneak against Wastelands.

I agree with you. I think 3 AT, 2 COT, 3 VI, 3 Island, 1 Mtn, 7/8 fetch is the way to be. Currently, I am in favor of cutting the 8th fetch for a Preordain. I think 3 CoT is only strong with Blood Moon main (because it reduces the sacrifice effect). I agree 3 VI is the right number (especially with all of your fetches finding Islands), for your above mentioned reason. If you have 1 VI in the 'yard (from Wasteland), 1 in play, and a non-Scalding Tarn fetch, you need to be able to find the 3rd mountain to cast/use or double use Sneak Attack.

I would go with 3 Cliques in board for added measure against blue bringing the number to 6 cards post board with Rebs.

I really like Clique in this deck. It allows us to 'clear the way' end of turn to either 1) win a counter war or 2) make sure we are not allowing them to Show and Tell something unfavorable into play (assuming they don't draw something good). However, I think Vendilion Clique and Blood Moon are mutually exclusive. First of all, they would most likely come in versus different decks (Blood Moon would be for BUG, RUG, Maverick and V. Clique would be against Control/Combo) and second, it can be difficult to hit UU with Blood Moon in play.

Against a control deck, V Clique causes them to burn or lose a counter and can punish them for cutting removal from their deck.

[Koby]

2 Volcanics has hindered me more than running 3 or more when I need to cast and use Sneak against Wastelands.

Your loss to UR Delver in game 1 was because Pierce would fail on Leak? The 4th Misdirection is more important for resolving Sneak/Show than Daze and Pierce.

I would go with 3 Cliques in board for added measure against blue bringing the number to 6 cards post board with Rebs.

I almost always searched for basics regardless. The deck doesn't need Red mana until it's casting Sneak Attack - 7 sources is enough for that.

I was more surprised to see Mana Leak rather than Spell Pierce (which I did play around). Doesn't really strike me as an optimal card in those decks maindeck.

Clique never came up, and it seems half the time you're struggling to find enough lands early. I like it in theory, but against the true control decks, just baiting spells with Sneak Attack and Show n Tell are usually enough. Worst case, you hardcast Griselbrand with 4 Lotus Petal XD

I agree with you. I think 3 AT, 2 COT, 3 VI, 3 Island, 1 Mtn, 7/8 fetch is the way to be. Currently, I am in favor of cutting the 8th fetch for a Preordain. I think 3 CoT is only strong with Blood Moon main (because it reduces the sacrifice effect). I agree 3 VI is the right number (especially with all of your fetches finding Islands), for your above mentioned reason. If you have 1 VI in the 'yard (from Wasteland), 1 in play, and a non-Scalding Tarn fetch, you need to be able to find the 3rd mountain to cast/use or double use Sneak Attack.

I really like Clique in this deck. It allows us to 'clear the way' end of turn to either 1) win a counter war or 2) make sure we are not allowing them to Show and Tell something unfavorable into play (assuming they don't draw something good). However, I think Vendilion Clique and Blood Moon are mutually exclusive. First of all, they would most likely come in versus different decks (Blood Moon would be for BUG, RUG, Maverick and V. Clique would be against Control/Combo) and second, it can be difficult to hit UU with Blood Moon in play.

Against a control deck, V Clique causes them to burn or lose a counter and can punish them for cutting removal from their deck.

20 Land was way too much for this deck. I flooded in 3 games that could have been over had I drawn cantrips/nonlands. 19 is enough IMO, so long as we realize that we can run the risk of being mana screwed.

I never considered boarding out Lotus Petal. Is this a good idea against?

[bfeingersh]

Any thoughts on Trinisphere as anti-control that also hits Storm and Burn?

[rxavage]

Any thoughts on Trinisphere as anti-control that also hits Storm and Burn?

I've contemplated it cause it costs the same as blood moon and we have petals, tombs, and cities for ramp. I'm going to test it but it could end up hurting us cause we'd have to essentially wait til we could produce six mana to show&tell protected if the opponent has access to 3 mana and force.

[catmint]

Just because you had a bad run of flooding you cannot conclude that 20 lands is "way" too many. 19 lands 4 petals should be fine for the curve, but I think you should mulligan a lot to be more successful overall and for that plan 14 blue lands are better than 13.

SB vs. Maverick: I currently bring in 2 Blood Moon & 3 Pithing needle for 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Intuition, 2 Misdirection.

I side out some number of Lotus Petal in some control matches I expect to go long like UW, Deedstill,... Here you often should take the time to find the extra land drop and the extra counterspell. Loosing a counter war where you invested cards in tmp mana is also devastating.

[Water_Wizard]

20 Land was way too much for this deck. I flooded in 3 games that could have been over had I drawn cantrips/nonlands. 19 is enough IMO, so long as we realize that we can run the risk of being mana screwed.

I agree. 19 is optimum.

I never considered boarding out Lotus Petal. Is this a good idea against?

Any deck faster than us, leave petal in. Against control decks, take it out. Against control, I think the few games it allows us to win aren't worth the games when you wish it were a counterspell. If you expect a lot of control (however, there doesn't seem to be much being played right now), I advocate removing lotus petals for pyroblasts. Obviously, this changes if you expect Surgical Extraction (and who doesn't), then Intuitions would come out as well.

[Esper3k]

Just wondering - why is everyone running Grafdigger's Cage these days as yard hate? I would think something like Relic (since we don't really care about our yard) would work better for us?

[Koby]

Just wondering - why is everyone running Grafdigger's Cage these days as yard hate? I would think something like Relic (since we don't really care about our yard) would work better for us?

Leyline is too high variant, Relic requires 2 mana to use effectively (1 to cast, 1 to pop). Grafdiggers on the other hand, stop everything. Counters protect it too, hopefully long enough to fire out a Show and Tell/Sneak Attack and just end it right away.

I suppose Tormod's Crypt also works (esp against KotR decks) but Grafdiggers is also nice against GSZ.

[rxavage]

Just wondering - why is everyone running Grafdigger's Cage these days as yard hate? I would think something like Relic (since we don't really care about our yard) would work better for us?

Relic can also prevent surgical extraction blowouts.

[Koby]

Some thoughts:

Would Magus of the Moon play better than Blood Moon as the Sideboard card? We normally expect non-red Removal decks to board out their removal against us.

Would boarding into 3 Progenitus help to beat Maverick/Bant better?

[Esper3k]

Leyline is too high variant, Relic requires 2 mana to use effectively (1 to cast, 1 to pop). Grafdiggers on the other hand, stop everything. Counters protect it too, hopefully long enough to fire out a Show and Tell/Sneak Attack and just end it right away.

I suppose Tormod's Crypt also works (esp against KotR decks) but Grafdiggers is also nice against GSZ.

Yeah, but Relic cycles and my experience hasn't been that the 1 extra mana has been super relevant.

I guess Grafdiggers is more of a consideration for us here as opposed to other decks since we don't care about other yard based things that it doesn't stop like Punishing Fires, Life from the Loam, shrinking Knights, Tarmogoyfs etc.

Some thoughts:

Would Magus of the Moon play better than Blood Moon as the Sideboard card? We normally expect non-red Removal decks to board out their removal against us.

Would boarding into 3 Progenitus help to beat Maverick/Bant better?

I think it's fine in the board, but I think Blood Moon is still better. We generally don't need the body that Magus provides and once Blood Moon resolves, I tend to find we have plenty of time to finish the game, so why play the card that's a lot easier to remove?

Also, against RUG, Blood Moon is significantly superior, so that's a pretty large consideration for me.

[Esper3k]

Some thoughts:

Would Magus of the Moon play better than Blood Moon as the Sideboard card? We normally expect non-red Removal decks to board out their removal against us.

Would boarding into 3 Progenitus help to beat Maverick/Bant better?

There really isn't much Bant in my meta, but I'd really like to test some stuff I've seen suggested here (Submerge / Vendilion Clique sounds really interesting) to help with those matchups.

Don't get married, guys - preparing for a wedding really cuts into your testing time!

[Koby]

Yeah, but Relic cycles and my experience hasn't been that the 1 extra mana has been super relevant.

I guess Grafdiggers is more of a consideration for us here as opposed to other decks since we don't care about other yard based things that it doesn't stop like Punishing Fires, Life from the Loam, shrinking Knights, Tarmogoyfs etc.

Right, the best use for us is against Dredge, and also a slight answer to Reanimation spells. We generally have about 2-3 turns that we need to setup and Cage does that well enough. Playing counters helps to make sure it sticks.

I think it's fine in the board, but I think Blood Moon is still better. We generally don't need the body that Magus provides and once Blood Moon resolves, I tend to find we have plenty of time to finish the game, so why play the card that's a lot easier to remove?

Also, against RUG, Blood Moon is significantly superior, so that's a pretty large consideration for me.

Both good points. I'm inclined to continue playing Blood Moon, since there isn't as much non-aggro 3c decks in my metagame where Magus would shine.

[Esper3k]

Both good points. I'm inclined to continue playing Blood Moon, since there isn't as much non-aggro 3c decks in my metagame where Magus would shine.

Yeah, I think the only deck I would really use Magus from the board against is something like BUG control where they're pretty creature light, 3 color, plus can help protect your guys from Edict effects.

[Blitzbold]

Don't get married, guys - preparing for a wedding really cuts into your testing time!

Now guess what happens if you also get children... Not a single complete tournament for me since last June. But most of the time it's absolutely worth it. Both wife and children I mean. ;-)


On topic:
My current Maindeck features both Blood Moon and Intuition as a two-of. One of the tradeoffs is only running 7 creatures, though. I haven't had enough time to test this configuration, but I really like the idea. Especially because 1) Blood Moon creates random blow outs and 2) it frees up much appreciated SB Slots.