All B/R update speculation.

[Einherjer]

Ill say it again for those who still complain about Show and Tell:

Learn to adapt. Learn to play magic.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

What are the chances that you have (black source) Dark Ritual, Doomsday, and the ability to win the game the next turn with the remaining cards in your hand?

When you figure this out let me know. (Hint: This is waaaaaaaaay harder to figure out because Doomsday is a lot less linear)

[Koby]

When you figure this out let me know. (Hint: This is waaaaaaaaay harder to figure out because Doomsday is a lot less linear)

That's the point. DD is a deck that takes months to learn and years to perfect.

Sneak Show can be played hungover, and half asleep.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

That's the point. DD is a deck that takes months to learn and years to perfect.

Sneak Show can be played hungover, and half asleep.

I mean, that is a point. It doesn't really say if a card should be banned or not, unless that is the metric you use to determine if decks should be banned.

[Koby]

I mean, that is a point. It doesn't really say if a card should be banned or not, unless that is the metric you use to determine if decks should be banned.

I have not been advocating for Show and Tell to be banned. I am merely identifying possible points that strike against Show and Tell as a continued element in future metagames. It does not lend itself to fair strategies.

[joemauer]

When you figure this out let me know. (Hint: This is waaaaaaaaay harder to figure out because Doomsday is a lot less linear)

You need a LED, LED or petal, Probe, Dark Ritual, Doomsday, and a land or a petal.

What does Show and Tell need again?

[Koby]

You need a LED, LED or petal, Probe, Dark Ritual, Doomsday, and a land or a petal.

What does Show and Tell need again?

Show and Tell (4 of), Griselbrand (4 of), Lotus Petal (4 of), Sol-land (6 of)

[TooCloseToTheSun]

I have not been advocating for Show and Tell to be banned. I am merely identifying possible points that strike against Show and Tell as a continued element in future metagames. It does not lend itself to fair strategies.

So are you saying that "It is easy to play," is a strike against Show and Tell as a continued element in future metagames.

You need a LED, LED or petal, Probe, Dark Ritual, Doomsday, and a land or a petal.

What does Show and Tell need again?

That's what you need for a turn one win. He said turn 2. Also, at best Sneak and Show can't win the game before turn 3.

[Koby]

So are you saying that "It is easy to play," is a strike against Show and Tell as a continued element in future metagames.

That's what you need for a turn one win. He said turn 2. Also, at best Sneak and Show can't win the game before turn 3.

Doomsday being a difficult deck to pilot intrinsically will eliminate it from being a top tier deck. There is no way it will penetrate a threshold of rampancy in the Top 8. Show and Tell, being that much easier to pilot, can be widely adopted and become too overbearing. What if Grislebrand is just the tip of the iceberg? What other fatties will be coming out in the coming months? This is the dangerous territory that Survival rode for several years until it became widely adopted with Vengevine.

The deck can win on Turn 2. Not very reliably, but it does involve a Show & Tell into Sneak Attack into Lotus Petal to sneak Emrakul. That's an additional Show & Tell, Lotus Petal, Sneak Attack, Emrakul out of 14 potential new cards. Not reliable, but possible.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Doomsday being a difficult deck to pilot intrinsically will eliminate it from being a top tier deck. There is no way it will penetrate a threshold of rampancy in the Top 8. Show and Tell, being that much easier to pilot, can be widely adopted and become too overbearing. What if Grislebrand is just the tip of the iceberg? What other fatties will be coming out in the coming months? This is the dangerous territory that Survival rode for several years until it became widely adopted with Vengevine.

The deck can win on Turn 2. Not very reliably, but it does involve a Show & Tell into Sneak Attack into Lotus Petal to sneak Emrakul. That's an additional Show & Tell, Lotus Petal, Sneak Attack, Emrakul out of 14 potential new cards. Not reliable, but possible.

While we are just making shit up, what if they print something that makes doomsday better? Where does this wild speculation stop? Doomsday isn't that hard to play, it might be hard to master but most people with minimal reading on the subject can play and win with doomsday.

But yeah I guess that SnT can win turn 2.

[Norm]

Doomsday being a difficult deck to pilot intrinsically will eliminate it from being a top tier deck. There is no way it will penetrate a threshold of rampancy in the Top 8. Show and Tell, being that much easier to pilot, can be widely adopted and become too overbearing. What if Grislebrand is just the tip of the iceberg? What other fatties will be coming out in the coming months? This is the dangerous territory that Survival rode for several years until it became widely adopted with Vengevine.

The deck can win on Turn 2. Not very reliably, but it does involve a Show & Tell into Sneak Attack into Lotus Petal to sneak Emrakul. That's an additional Show & Tell, Lotus Petal, Sneak Attack, Emrakul out of 14 potential new cards. Not reliable, but possible.

You could win on turn one with Ancient Tomb, Lotus Petalx3 Show and Tell -> Sneak Attack -> Griselbrand draw into Emrakul, The Aeons Torn (or just be on the draw)

[Koby]

You could win on turn one with Ancient Tomb, Lotus Petalx3 Show and Tell -> Sneak Attack -> Griselbrand draw into Emrakul, The Aeons Torn (or just be on the draw)

Also true, but that's a pretty ridiculous draw. It can happen.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

You could win on turn one with Ancient Tomb, Lotus Petalx3 Show and Tell -> Sneak Attack -> Griselbrand draw into Emrakul, The Aeons Torn (or just be on the draw)

Shit you don't even need the Show and Tell if you can draw into the 4th lotus petal. My point is though that isn't what you want to be doing with this deck. If you want to win turn 1 play Belcher or SI.

Bonus Turn 1 Win:
Leyline of the Void, 2 Dark Rits, Helm of Obdience.

[joemauer]

Shit you don't even need the Show and Tell if you can draw into the 4th lotus petal. My point is though that isn't what you want to be doing with this deck. If you want to win turn 1 play Belcher or SI.

Bonus Turn 1 Win:
Leyline of the Void, 2 Dark Rits, Helm of Obdience.

All this talk of turn one kills reminds of why Force of Will is such a strong card.
Good thing Show and Tell decks play that card.

[Dark Ritual]

When you figure this out let me know. (Hint: This is waaaaaaaaay harder to figure out because Doomsday is a lot less linear)

With the old german list of doomsday winning with a pass the turn pile on turn 2 involved having 1U open after your draw step and it also involved having access to an LED after you resolved doomsday in hand, the one of IGG or tendrils/burning wish, a brainstorm, or a sensei's top. Let's just pretend we have a brainstorm in hand turn 1. The pile was follows:

In hand/play 2 lands that make 1U, 1 useless card, and a brainstorm/SDT/LED. It went like this:

Top
SDT (whichever one wasn't in hand)
LED
LED
IGG
Tendrils of Agony
Bottom

Draw SDT for turn, cast SDT and brainstorm in any order. Put back IGG on top and the useless card below it. LED x2 and the top if you haven't played it, 4 storm. Crack for black and blue, tap to draw IGG, IGG floating UB 5 storm. 8 storm after LED's and brainstorm putting back tendrils on top. SDT, 9 storm. Tap to draw, tendrils for 20.

There are quite a lot of pass the turn piles though all depending on cards in hand. Most require IGG to be in hand or in the pile though, making most outdated as IGG isn't run in the current lists of doomsday that are UBrw and are really only useful in pass the turn piles or as a way of ramping up storm count or a way to fight discard if it comes to that but this is unlikely as discard isn't really played in legacy that much currently outside of esperblade and the last thing you want to do against them is cast IGG typically.

Oh I have this magical christmas land turn 1 win scenario:

Land, dark rit x2, helm of awakening, sensei's top x2, recycle them for over 9,000 storm then cast LED, crack it for red, spin top, burning wish, grapeshot them for 1983928329 damage.

My point is, turn 1 wins in legacy are very farfetched scenarios that rarely ever happen. In all the times I've played storm combo I can count the number of turn 1 wins on two hands as they don't happen that often.

[Tacosnape]

Doomsday is where Show and Tell was a few years ago - Not quite there, but with the potential to get there. Doomsday's missing a link somewhere, though, and has the drawback of halving your life total, meaning there are times when casting a Doomsday and not winning that turn will result in your demise. Show and Tell, however, is significantly easier to set up.

I'm not going to lie, though. We could be having this conversation about Doomsday in a year or two. I could be advocating for it's banning. I don't think it'll happen due to the prohibitive mana cost and the moderate fragility of it, but it could.

I mean, there's a ton of strange shit I've seen with Doomsday. Ranging from stacking quad Temporal Masteries on top of a Laboratory Maniac to the old LED Second Sunrise combos to Shelldock Isle BS, and in theory something could get printed that makes a Doomsday Pile so incredible it's just hard to stop. It's just not there yet.

Let's be real, though. Any deck that's essentially a 1-spell combo has the potential to break Legacy. Show and Tell. Doomsday. Survival of the Fittest. Hell, remember when Gamekeeper was a deck? Everything in the world stopped it. Countermagic, Guy removal, Yard hate, etc. But it won for awhile, and got played, because all you had to do was focus on one card hitting play - Gamekeeper. Imagine it now with Cavern of Souls. That's a 1-card uncounterable combo. The only reason people don't play it now is because there's better ways to cheat something into play and win. Like, you know. Show and Tell. Which is easier to cast and doesn't die to graveyard hate.

The thing is, they don't ban these cards until it they actually -do- start breaking Legacy. Doomsday and its cousins aren't changing the format yet. Show and Tell, however, is right on that line NOW. I argue that it's crossed it by a few steps, and it's worth pointing out that most people who disagree with its banning are willing to admit it's very close to the line and/or on their watch list.

[wcm8]

Tacosnape, what's interesting to note about Show and Tell is that it is still *technically* a two card combo -- you need to have one of the game-ending creatures in your hand at the time you cast it. Which isn't that tough to do, but still a requirement. Doomsday only requires that 5 cards that end the game are still in your library, pushing it a bit closer to being a one card combo. However, as you said it's still missing a piece or two to really push it over the top. Show and Tell is already there.

Pretty much any deck that isn't running a high density of blue and/or black is going to get run over by Show and Tell decks the majority of the time. But this was essentially true also of ANT while Mystical Tutor was legal. There will always be a 'best' combo deck in the format, and unless they nuke every combo piece from orbit, another one will step into its place to beat the 'fair' decks back into submission. As long as the tempo archetype retains its positive matchup against combo, I don't really see a huge problem yet -- we still have a healthy rock-paper-scissors dynamic going on.

[Hanni]

As long as the tempo archetype retains its positive matchup against combo, I don't really see a huge problem yet -- we still have a healthy rock-paper-scissors dynamic going on.

People forgot about 2006.

[from Cairo]

I don't really see a huge problem yet -- we still have a healthy rock-paper-scissors dynamic going on.

I'd agree. Sneak & Show is currently the bogeyman of the format, but I think Maverick, RUG, UW and many established archetypes can be tuned to combat it without sacrificing game against the other decks in the meta. This summer feels like a great time to be teching-out/next-levelling in Legacy as the major ~8 archetypes seem very established.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

The thing is, they don't ban these cards until it they actually -do- start breaking Legacy. Doomsday and its cousins aren't changing the format yet. Show and Tell, however, is right on that line NOW. I argue that it's crossed it by a few steps, and it's worth pointing out that most people who disagree with its banning are willing to admit it's very close to the line and/or on their watch list.

It is not near my line. I have not had any problems playing against Sneak and Show or any of the other Show and Tell decks.