All B/R update speculation.

[Koby]

I'd break Survival again in a day^^

It would take you that long? I've already got a deck build waiting for its return. :D

[DragoFireheart]

Drago,

Although your suggestions are bold and may be considered stupid, I would have to agree.The unbannings would strengthen all of the tier1/1.5 decks, there is something for everyone in there and as such prevent one from dominating the others. The issue is unbanning them all at once is unlikely to happen, banning them one at a time could disrupt the balance, so the question is: what is the safest order of cards to be unbanned?

Unban in this order:

Mind Twist
Earthcraft
Frantic Search
Land Tax
Mind's Desire
Goblin Recruiter
Mystical Tutor
Survival of the Fittest
Mental Misstep

MMS arguably caused more warping than SotF. Also, there are now better yard hate cards to handle parts of the old combo for the price of 2 life.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Unban:


Survival of the Fittest
Goblin Recruiter
Mental Misstep
Mystical Tutor
Mind's Desire
Earthcraft
Frantic Search
Mind Twist


Yes, it will be ok. The first 2 months will be utter chaos, but there are enough checks to make it work.

I love how the one screaming pre-ban Temporal Mastery the loudest is now saying unban Survival, Frantic Search, Recruiter, Misstep, and M Tutor. I'm curious to how that works. Also you seem to have forgot Land Tax (or you think it is less broken than Frantic Search I'm just going to hope you just forgot).

I can seem some logic to some of those cards but Frantic Search? Yeah Survival + Vine + Frantic Search seems fun, but I'll pass.

[DragoFireheart]

I love how the one screaming pre-ban Temporal Mastery the loudest is now saying unban Survival, Frantic Search, Recruiter, Misstep, and M Tutor. I'm curious to how that works. Also you seem to have forgot Land Tax (or you think it is less broken than Frantic Search I'm just going to hope you just forgot).

I can seem some logic to some of those cards but Frantic Search? Yeah Survival + Vine + Frantic Search seems fun, but I'll pass.

- Oh right, Land Tax. I'm sure it would be fine to unban.

First, I was of the opinion that with the current card pool, TM would be ban worthy. Obviously I was wrong. I do wonder if you're going to hold a grudge forever though...?

Second, the reason I suggest mass unbannings of cards is because several of them:

A- Aren't that bad.

B- Are kept in check by the current card pool or by other cards being unbanned in that list.

[dontbiteitholmes]

- Oh right, Land Tax. I'm sure it would be fine to unban.

First, I was of the opinion that with the current card pool, TM would be ban worthy. Obviously I was wrong. I do wonder if you're going to hold a grudge forever though...?

Second, the reason I suggest mass unbannings of cards is because several of them:

A- Aren't that bad.

B- Are kept in check by the current card pool or by other cards being unbanned in that list.

I suggest you play test Frantic Search. It would be fun for a month then miserable until they banned it again.

Recruiter makes Goblins better as an aggro deck and makes it viable as a combo deck at the same time. It also lets you stack your deck for 2 mana, don't know why that should ever be okay even if it is Goblins.

Misstep just makes everyone stick 4x in their deck before they blink. I was against banning it because it wasn't broken but now that it's gone I feel the difference. There just shouldn't be any card that goes in 99% of decks as a 4x.

[Lord Seth]

First, I was of the opinion that with the current card pool, TM would be ban worthy. Obviously I was wrong.

There's a difference between thinking a card could be banworthy and actually advocating that it be pre-emptively banned.

[Darkenslight]

Thinking on it, I'd be interested to see:

Unban:

Land Tax
Frantic Search

Ban:

Brainstorm

Not gonna happen, but it would definitely be...interesting.

[Snap_Keep]

Unban:


Survival of the Fittest
Goblin Recruiter
Mental Misstep
Mystical Tutor
Mind's Desire
Earthcraft
Frantic Search
Mind Twist
Land Tax


Yes, it will be ok. The first 2 months will be utter chaos, but there are enough checks to make it work.

Frantic Search be would super strong in High Tide, I would suggest it likely even be broken in that deck. Mono blue storm likes free spells that untap islands and draw cards. I'm sort of 50/50 on Mystical, it certainly makes most fair decks much worse. I think Show and Tell, Reanimator and Storm would get a huge surge in popularity and playability.

I don't think Recruiter should ever be unbanned, it's a logistics nigthtmare and I feel safe in saying its ridiculously broken in goblins (been playing gobbos since Landstill was the top dog)

[Kich867]

Misstep just makes everyone stick 4x in their deck before they blink. I was against banning it because it wasn't broken but now that it's gone I feel the difference. There just shouldn't be any card that goes in 99% of decks as a 4x.

I feel like only blue based control decks did this and they do so with a plethora of other cards as it stands anyways.

[joemauer]

I am still desperately waiting for Mind Twist to come off the ban list.

I could care less about Land Tax. If DCI quietly took this off the ban list tonight, I am sure no one would notice.

Mind's Desire would be neat to unban. It kind of is overshadowed by cards like Ad Nauseum and Time Spiral now, two cards that weren't around when it went on the ban list.

[DragoFireheart]

There's a difference between thinking a card could be banworthy and actually advocating that it be pre-emptively banned.

Posting my opinion != Advocating.

[DragoFireheart]

I suggest you play test Frantic Search. It would be fun for a month then miserable until they banned it again.

- Why would it be banned again?

Recruiter makes Goblins better as an aggro deck and makes it viable as a combo deck at the same time. It also lets you stack your deck for 2 mana, don't know why that should ever be okay even if it is Goblins.

- Goblins aren't exactly the tier 1 they used to be. Unbanning this in the past would have been detrimental, but since the power creep has sorta weaken goblins, recruiter would be fine to unban.

Misstep just makes everyone stick 4x in their deck before they blink. I was against banning it because it wasn't broken but now that it's gone I feel the difference. There just shouldn't be any card that goes in 99% of decks as a 4x.

- If you're going to use that logic, then you should by default should be of the opinion that Brainstorm should be banned. There are good reasons to leave it banned and unbanning it is easily the most risky of out of all of the ones I listed, but the reasoning you posted is weak.

[Kich867]

Posting my opinion != Advocating.

Posting an opinion in favor of something is advocating it, in fact, the word is synonymous with 'support'.

[Pippin]

Well, having tested extensively Sneak Attack deck in the last few days... I can concur that the main problem currently is Grislebrand. As stated few times before - Yawgmoths Bargain is banned for a reason, and this is strictly superior version.
I'm not sure what Wizards R&D where thinking when they were designing this card, it's like they have learned nothing from the past. I do however know that Griselbrand broke Show and Tell, and made that deck win games that it had no business winning before.

IMO, Griselbrand should be on the watch list and should get the axe in next few months. That would solve the problem of having upgraded Y. Bargain legal, and at the same time keep Show and Tell as a card safe of banning (until they again print something absurd...). I seriously think we'll start seeing doom and gloom topics in near future, as soon as next few results of bigger tournaments start rolling-in.

[PollePotDK]

Anyone know when the new B/R list are coming? can't find the info anywhere...

[Deviruchi]

Announcement Date: June 18, 2012
Effective Date: July 1, 2012

[dontbiteitholmes]

- Why would it be banned again?

Because Frantic Search is stupid broken for Legacy. Seriously, I can't even begin to explain how broken the card is if you've never messed around with it. My friends back in the day refused to adhere to any format definitions, so I'd have to play vs. their 4x Demonic Tutor decks and all kinds of stupid garbage. I finally got tired of playing my Legacy vs. their broken decks and built a deck where the only banned card was Frantic Search. Let's just say after that they converted to playing Legacy legal decks for mercy.
Granted, that doesn't really mean shit in the end, but the fact remains Frantic Search is redic levels of stupid broken. It's so good it might even be able to make Solidarity a DTB again. By far the unsafest card on your list by a factor of 10.

- Goblins aren't exactly the tier 1 they used to be. Unbanning this in the past would have been detrimental, but since the power creep has sorta weaken goblins, recruiter would be fine to unban.

Yes Goblins aren't that great right now, who cares? 2 mana stack your deck is not a fair ability and it never will be in any deck. Stax is shittier than Goblins but I don't think anyone would want to unban WorkShop. Not that Recruiter = Workshop (but then again FoodChain Goblins was a tier 1.5 Vintage deck back when Workshop ran 4x Trinispheres and it often won turn 3 and the only things not Legacy legal where 2xMoxes, Lotus, Strip Mine, and Recruiters) but a broken card is broken regardless of how shitty the deck it would go in is now. If you unban Recruiter, Goblins gets easily twice as good as an aggro deck then also has potential as a combo deck (just by sticking 4x Food Chains in main or sideboard)

- If you're going to use that logic, then you should by default should be of the opinion that Brainstorm should be banned. There are good reasons to leave it banned and unbanning it is easily the most risky of out of all of the ones I listed, but the reasoning you posted is weak.

Casting Brainstorm requires one blue mana, casting Mental Misstep required zero and as a result it ended up in a lot of decks it had no business being in just because it was the best option (Zoo/Goblins/ect.). I actually kinda miss MM era. I was cleaning up. Everyone was so focused on MM NO/Rug and UW Blade I just steamrolled them all day with Enchantress. At the same time though probably 90% of the decks I played against had MM which isn't very healthy for the format.

Anyone know when the new B/R list are coming? can't find the info anywhere...

If you are expecting anything prepare to be disappointed.

[Reagens]

Well, having tested extensively Sneak Attack deck in the last few days... I can concur that the main problem currently is Grislebrand. As stated few times before - Yawgmoths Bargain is banned for a reason, and this is strictly superior version.
I'm not sure what Wizards R&D where thinking when they were designing this card, it's like they have learned nothing from the past. I do however know that Griselbrand broke Show and Tell, and made that deck win games that it had no business winning before.

IMO, Griselbrand should be on the watch list and should get the axe in next few months. That would solve the problem of having upgraded Y. Bargain legal, and at the same time keep Show and Tell as a card safe of banning (until they again print something absurd...). I seriously think we'll start seeing doom and gloom topics in near future, as soon as next few results of bigger tournaments start rolling-in.

I understand your reasoning and the same one was applied when Survival of the Fittest got the axe (people argued that vengevine was the real culprit). Alas WotC always bans the enabler. Mystical was clearly an enabler for broken plays, as was survival. Banning vengevine would only have postponed the inevitable since already then decks were emerging that didn't use vengevine anymore.

Not that many years ago one of the most broken plays in Legacy was a turn 3 progenitus. That thing doesn't even see play anymore because the power level is too low. Wizards will keep printing nuttier and nuttier creatures at highly elevated mana costs and if it won't be for griselbrand it will be for the next powerhouse that SnT will get the axe. The beauty of banning show and tell is also that it will force reanmiator to adopt new SB strategies. I always felt that SnT was too easy as an answer to gy hatred.

Mind you that in the time of flash area I argued against banning it, as with mystical. Looking back however I realise that all banning decisions of the past few years were correct and justified. It wasn't until mystical was banned that I realized how much it narrowed the format from deck design perspective.

I have sold my show and tells this week as well as my sneak attacks. SnT WILL get banned there is no question about it. Only real question is when.

[Einherjer]

What I am wondering...why is no-one complaining about Sensei's Divining Top? THIS is pushing UW Terminator OVER THE TOP! It's the only real card that should be banned at the moment. And if they have to weaken SneakAttack, ban Griselbrand and let us with Show and Tell..

Greetings

[rxavage]

What I am wondering...why is no-one complaining about Sensei's Divining Top? THIS is pushing UW Terminator OVER THE TOP! It's the only real card that should be banned at the moment. And if they have to weaken SneakAttack, ban Griselbrand and let us with Show and Tell..

Greetings

Neither Griselbrand or Show&Tell need to be banned right now. The same people clamoring for a ban are the same people that thought Temporal Mastery would break the format. It's funny the same 3 decks have been at the top so long yet no one complains. I think that because the same decks have been at the top so long a lot of people are vested in them and they don't like to lose. But what do they expect when each of these three decks sb's are tuned to beat eachother. The format will adjust, people will start playing black again I suspect because of sneakshow and as a result of this will realize that the top 3 are easily beaten as well. My advice is just sit back, relax, and enjoy winning. Also, when the meta because saturated with sneakshow break out a B/X/x deck give them a pimp slap, tell them to go home, then enjoy playing sneakshow again.