[Deck] Dredge

[Tammit67]

What do people think about skaab ruinator as another wincon and decoy? Costing 3 is probably often to much to reach but my thinking is dredge could reach 3 lands when slow rolling or cast it off LED and people tend to board out spot removal for hate. So is this guy even worth discussing as a 1-2 in the SB or not?

He just doesn't attack the opponent from a different angle and has all the issues the rest of the deck is vulnerable to.

[jares]

What do people think about skaab ruinator as another wincon and decoy? Costing 3 is probably often to much to reach but my thinking is dredge could reach 3 lands when slow rolling or cast it off LED and people tend to board out spot removal for hate. So is this guy even worth discussing as a 1-2 in the SB or not?

For Dredge, anything that costs 2 or more mana (or at least the ones that don't have a profitable Flashback cost) automatically falls under the "unreliable" category - and this is coming from a player that prefers to run 16 lands! This is not to mention that Skaab Ruinator does nothing from the graveyard.

If I were to run something that costs more than 1 mana, the first card that I would look at is Tolarian Winds.

I hope that helps.

Kind Regards,
jares

[jares]

When you say that Dredge isn't a "grindy" deck by nature, that's because you don't build the deck or play the deck in order to be a "grindy" deck by nature where as I, and other players, do. And it's not as if we disregard our explosive openings to do so, where in fact we have more explosive openings because we don't cut business for combo kill conditions, but we always have the tactical option of winning incrementally when necessary.

I disagree with the assertion that there is no such thing as a "virtual" win in competitive legacy, because it's a subjective observation based on whether or not the opponents either have outs to your board state or a non-interactive path to victory. When the opponent has been Mind Twisted, you have a board of tokens and a graveyard of Ichorids it's extremely difficult for any deck to find a way out of that situation because there's no way the can deal with effectively two board states between the threats on the board and the threats in your graveyard with any single top deck.

Games are won before they end, winning is the act of accruing positional and material advantages where ending a game is just the menial process of having to be bothered to go kill your opponent.

Being one of the few that prefer the "grindy" game over the combo finish, I would have to agree with the idea that "games are won before they end", though I would probably generalize it by saying that "games can be won before they end".

For us, Dredge is a Chess match where "the act of accruing positional and material advantage" becomes the means of achieving a "checkmate". To take the Chess analogy further, it's worth noting that the majority of (competitive) Chess games cannot be won in the first few moves (or even in one "big" move), and the same is likely to be true with Dredge (not to mention that a combo finish is much more difficult to pull-off in games two and three).

While the majority of players prefer to take advantage of Dredge's strengths by focusing on ending the game early (or at least, in one fell swoop), we prefer to take the more calculated, incremental route. At the end of the day, these two schools of thought each have their pros and cons, and I find it amazing the Dredge is one of the few decks that is able to harbor two very different strategies.

Having said that, I find that, as someone here has already mentioned, the best thing for us to do as Dredge players is to choose one of the available play styles, and do your best to understand how to be good at it.

Cheers,
jares

[xfxf]

Guys it's a little cheaty but I want to ask you what kind of hoser you fear most I was using 2 Tormod's Crypt and 2 Surgicals in my RUG Delver sideboard so that I'd have both permanent and non permanent hate. I was using the Surgicals against other storm based combo as well but lately I feel like replacing them with Scavenging Ooze as a threat against both graveyard decks and RUG mirrors.

However, when I take out the non permanent hate out of the equation I'm not sure if I should go with Crypt or Cage. I try to goldfish the quadlaser version to understand the deck but I'm not very clear about the different versions, dread return targets etc. so I'm asking for advice on how to best hate you guys out Is anybody willing to give advice?

Thanks!

[jares]

Guys it's a little cheaty but I want to ask you what kind of hoser you fear most I was using 2 Tormod's Crypt and 2 Surgicals in my RUG Delver sideboard so that I'd have both permanent and non permanent hate. I was using the Surgicals against other storm based combo as well but lately I feel like replacing them with Scavenging Ooze as a threat against both graveyard decks and RUG mirrors.

However, when I take out the non permanent hate out of the equation I'm not sure if I should go with Crypt or Cage. I try to goldfish the quadlaser version to understand the deck but I'm not very clear about the different versions, dread return targets etc. so I'm asking for advice on how to best hate you guys out Is anybody willing to give advice?

Thanks!

The cards that you've already mentioned are all good hate cards against Dredge. Personally, I don't like seeing Tormod's Crypt and Leyline of the Void, and not far behind are Scavenging Ooze and Surgical Extraction. It would probably be best to diversify your hate with some combination of those.

I hope that helps.

Cheers,
jares

[xfxf]

I will have to replace the Surgicals with Ooze to cover my other matchups as well, that's why I asked if it was better to team up Crypt or Cage with Ooze. But from your response I understand that Cage is not a major concern for you :)

[Tombstalker]

Tammit67 and Jares- thanks that makes sense although ruinator can be cast from the grave, still I see the point. Was just thinking of alternative wins in the face of hate.

My current TA board has 1 crypt 3 extractions 2 explosives plus 3 pierce all if which I bring in against dredge. Now from a dredge players perspective I'm looking at combating this amount of hate.

[jares]

Tammit67 and Jares- thanks that makes sense although ruinator can be cast from the grave, still I see the point. Was just thinking of alternative wins in the face of hate.

My current TA board has 1 crypt 3 extractions 2 explosives plus 3 pierce all if which I bring in against dredge. Now from a dredge players perspective I'm looking at combating this amount of hate.

Oh, I actually forgot the Skaab Ruinator can be cast from the GY. Either way, you get the point. To add to that, though, I realized that the best way to spend 3 mana is to Flashback a Faithless Looting (and it does happen a bit more often when using 16 lands).

Cheers,
jares

[xfxf]

I was watching the SCG stream and the Gerry Thompson (dredge) vs Kaitlin Lindburg (hypergenesis) game was on. She started with Leyline and I saw a Life from the Loam going to the graveyard on Gerry's side whie Kaitlin put the Leyline in the graveyard herself. What was going on, how did Gerry counter the Leyline on Turn 0?

[Waikiki]

It was a nature's claim

[dredgekid]

Anybody have gerry's deck list for tonight? I wouldn't mind seeing what he came up with after the last SCG for changes to his list.

[Michael Keller]

I believe there's a fundamental diagreement between whether or not Dredge is a "combo" deck attempting to win in one turn or an "aggro" deck attempting to generate and compound incremental advantages in card advantage and board position. When considering the extremes of the Flayer of the Hatebound lists and the Quad Lazer lists, the difference is that the Flayer of the Hatebound list takes more advantage of explosive starts by ending the game in a single turn, where Quad Lazer lists are capable of applying pressure off of gradual starts. To me, the list that can make more of gradual starts is more important than the list that can make more of explosive starts because the act of exploding is a win in and of itself regardless of the kill conditions.

When you say that Dredge isn't a "grindy" deck by nature, that's because you don't build the deck or play the deck in order to be a "grindy" deck by nature where as I, and other players, do. And it's not as if we disregard our explosive openings to do so, where in fact we have more explosive openings because we don't cut business for combo kill conditions, but we always have the tactical option of winning incrementally when necessary.

I disagree with the assertion that there is no such thing as a "virtual" win in competitive legacy, because it's a subjective observation based on whether or not the opponents either have outs to your board state or a non-interactive path to victory. When the opponent has been Mind Twisted, you have a board of tokens and a graveyard of Ichorids it's extremely difficult for any deck to find a way out of that situation because there's no way the can deal with effectively two board states between the threats on the board and the threats in your graveyard with any single top deck.

Games are won before they end, winning is the act of accruing positional and material advantages where ending a game is just the menial process of having to be bothered to go kill your opponent.

With all due respect, you have disagreed with my philosophy on just about every aspect of this archetype there is to discuss by countering with known information that can be interpreted in a variety of ways. It's entirely subjective and to be honest there is nothing more that you can really say that can change my mind in that respect, and I'm sure the feeling is mutual.

We'll leave it at that.

Alternatively, I am interested in hearing others' thoughts on how they are opting to change their sideboards, if they decide to.

[dredgekid]

Hollywood, what does your board currently look like? did the duresses end up working out for you?

[joemauer]

Anybody have gerry's deck list for tonight? I wouldn't mind seeing what he came up with after the last SCG for changes to his list.

He made 11th place. His deck looked like it swapped a dread return for a thug and some other subtle change.

His sideboard had some changes. With Blazing Archon and Nether Shadow being the most stand out.

@GerryT: Did Blazing Archon help much against those show and tell decks? And did Nether Shadow help much versus those surgical extractions?

[Michael Keller]

Hollywood, what does your board currently look like? did the duresses end up working out for you?

They worked out all right, and they were essential in some circumstances. I am kind of shifting around right now but the last sideboard strategy I used in last week's local was incredibly good.

[Izor]

Alternatively, I am interested in hearing others' thoughts on how they are opting to change their sideboards, if they decide to.

My sideboard currently addresses graveyard hate only.

Surgical Extractions with 2 DR + 1 Iona and 2 Nether Shadow
Crypt/Relic/Spellbomb with 1-2 Grudge and additional discard dorks
Leyline and Cage with 4 Claims and a 5th out (Chain/Ray)



Congratz to Gerry T. on top 11! And an epic round 4 feature match and a very tight play overall.

I like the new list. It's actually the same list I've been playing for almost 2 months now, the only difference being that I play the full set of Breakthrough over the Pimps main. I also like Shadows over Bloodghasts in the sideboard, I've always liked them much better.

[jares]

They worked out all right, and they were essential in some circumstances. I am kind of shifting around right now but the last sideboard strategy I used in last week's local was incredibly good.

May I ask about the details of the test results for using Duress over Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek?

Cheers,
jares

[lsho]

I've picked up the deck 2 weeks ago, playing a round a bit to get the feeling for the deck and I've got to say that picking up the deck is rather hard if you go for the Quadlazer variant if you are new in legacy. You most certainly make quite a bunch of mistakes on the way.

On the other hand, I transformed into the DR + Flayer list and it plays very well with the combo finish. Rather love it, actually. The combo finish makes it a bit easier to play with and win games out of nowhere.

[Digital Devil]

Played at a local event with a non-LED version of the deck (with no maindeck DR targets) and placed 3rd out of 38 - won against Merfolk (2-0), White Stax (2-1), UW Stoneblade (2-0) and Hive Mind (2-1, the third game I faced triple Faerie Macabre, Surgical Extraction on Bridge from Below, Force of Will + Spell Pierce on my discard outlets, and still managed to win), then accepted to I.D. the other two rounds. I won against RUG (2-0) in the top8 only to lose against GW Maverick (1-2) in the semis (he had an early Knight of the Reliquary backed up by Scryb Ranger). Memory's Journey is amazing (I played 2x in my sideboard), it won me two games by protecting Ichorid and Narcomoeba from Surgical Extraction.

[Calado]

Played at a local event with a non-LED version of the deck (with no maindeck DR targets) and placed 3rd out of 38 - won against Merfolk (2-0), White Stax (2-1), UW Stoneblade (2-0) and Hive Mind (2-1, the third game I faced triple Faerie Macabre, Surgical Extraction on Bridge from Below, Force of Will + Spell Pierce on my discard outlets, and still managed to win), then accepted to I.D. the other two rounds.

After bridges got extracted, did you win only with the Ichorids and the remaining tokens?
I liked this, especially because I still play non LED dredge.