[Deck] Aggro Loam

[Aggro_zombies]

my arguments are based on the fact that loam is a non factor, for what ever reason, without loams faithless looting are not good unless you have a bob pumping extra cards into your hand. The discussion is about Dark Confidant, not about faithless looting.

I know the current discussion is about Bob, but I wanted to bring up Faithless Looting because I'm having second thoughts about it and your post mentioned it.

I also don't think you need to have an engine going to have good Lootings. There are plenty of times where you'll have a couple of cards in hand that you either don't want or can't use anytime soon, and Looting lets you hopefully upgrade those. It's also worth noting that you'll often draw an extra mana source in most Loam builds because the deck is 50% mana. After turns three or four, these cards are...not exactly dead, but not really something you want, and are therefore fine fodder for Looting.

Having an engine going obviously makes Looting quite good, but that's true of pretty much anything in the deck.

Even if we are talking about faithless looting I still stand by my quote in that looting is only good when you have an engine online, and in that case you should be winning anyways. If you are fighting for card quality, top or library are better choices.

I don't think Top is better than Looting in this deck. You don't have a lot of instant-speed interaction and you don't really want to spend 1+ mana every turn to set up your next draw step. I get that Top makes Bob better, but Bob was already fine on his own; we're looking at options for when we don't have Bob or Loam kicking around.

Library is certainly a fine card, but I'm worried about how much grind the deck has. One of the attractive things about Looting is its immediacy. Many of the cards in the deck get incrementally better as the game grinds on, but my biggest problems arose when the opponent did something that demanded an immediate answer and all I had were cards whose power level is cumulative. Faithless Looting helps fill some of that immediacy gap. The deck doesn't really need more grind: if anything, it's too grindy, and needs something to tide it over while the grind gets warmed up.

[lavafrogg]

In regards to top, it allows you to protect your loams, it can help you truck through your deck by dredging away the top three cards of your library when they suck, and without loams then ensure that you draw gas as much as possible.

Looting doesn't really help in that you don't get any value out of discarding cards from your hand and in an ideal situation you want to make all of your land drops and play all of your diamonds to have the ability to loam and cycle more.

That being said; I don't think the deck needs card selection with the amount of card draw that it has access too. I feel that the deck needs as much gas as it can fit into its lists(seeing how the deck is 50% lands and loams). Loams + cycle lands and bobs are more than enough draw, the spots for looting's/tops can be better utilized with more action.

[trivial_matters]

I'm trying one Silvan Library right now.

Additionally, I swapped out Volrath's Strongold for a Kessig Wolf Run because I hardly ever use Stronghold's ability. The other idea was to try Cabal Pit instead. Thoughts?

EDIT: Cabal Pit deals with Delver, Mother of Runes and most of Maverick actually, also Batterskull, solves Goyf standoffs...

[Aggro_zombies]

Looting doesn't really help in that you don't get any value out of discarding cards from your hand and in an ideal situation you want to make all of your land drops and play all of your diamonds to have the ability to loam and cycle more.

This hasn't really been my experience. You don't need to Loam and cycle more to win unless you're really hurting for a way to stick a creature or you're trying to kill them from a high life total with Seismic Assault. I mean, there's no harm to trying to play all of your lands (although many Aggro Loam builds run only slightly more targets than fetches), but there's no harm to pitching them either.

That being said; I don't think the deck needs card selection with the amount of card draw that it has access too. I feel that the deck needs as much gas as it can fit into its lists(seeing how the deck is 50% lands and loams). Loams + cycle lands and bobs are more than enough draw, the spots for looting's/tops can be better utilized with more action.

Once, a couple of years ago, I worked on Merfolk when that deck was still running Standstill. The deck was interesting and not one I'd revisit, but one of the problems I had with with it was the idea that you should cut out the good blue draw spells to run more gas. This was based on the reasonable assumption that, if your creatures were all lords who buffed each other, then running more of them was a good thing. The problem, of course, was that the deck's draws became very rocky: sometimes you'd need just one more guy to punch through but you'd draw a bunch of counters or lands, or maybe you'd want a counter because you suspected your opponent was about to do something crazy but then you'd get the all-Stifles-and-dudes draw and die to the crazy.

This was because you were actually running too much gas. See, the thing is, while running more gas may increase the chances of drawing gas relative to the deck with no cantrips and less gas, you're still seeing the cards in essentially a random order. That means that, sure, when you draw well you'll draw really well, but you still draw poorly more often than you'd like, and certainly more often than if you'd run some card selection.

I know Looting doesn't look very impressive on its face, but it does see more than one card for one mana and helps bridge the gap between the early game and that late game mecca wherein you've reaped the accumulated value of your slower engines. I mean, cycling lands see cards at a rate of one card seen per one mana and one card invested; compare to Brainstorm or Ponder, staples of blue decks, which see three cards per one mana and one card invested. The only virtue to cycling lands is their accumulated power over several turns, but if your opponent is doing something that requires an immediate answer, cycling lands can feel pretty inadequate. The same is true for once-per-turn effects like Bob or Library.

I think Looting is at least worth testing.

EDIT: Cabal Pit deals with Delver, Mother of Runes and most of Maverick actually, also Batterskull, solves Goyf standoffs...

Wait, how does Cabal Pit deal with Batterskull? And I think if you're going to go with a Threshold land, it might as well be Barbarian Ring so you can at least kill them with it.

Swapping Volrath's to Wolf Run is fine, I guess.

[trivial_matters]

I should have said that Cabal Pit deals with the Germ token carrying Batterskull. You need Loam to activate it twice in a single turn.

I agree that Barbarian Ring looks better and it is a way of dealing with planeswalkers too.

[Aggro_zombies]

I should have said that Cabal Pit deals with the Germ token carrying Batterskull. You need Loam to activate it twice in a single turn.

I agree that Barbarian Ring looks better and it is a way of dealing with planeswalkers too.

I know it's the Germ token, I just thought you were talking about a single activation. I see what you mean now.

I don't really like the Threshold lands in the deck because they aren't very good unless you have an active LftL, and then they're mostly just okay. Having one probably doesn't hurt in terms of mana stability, but I'd rather run a Wolf Run/Rage Pit to let my creatures punch through. It's worth noting that trample also "deals" with the protection granted by Mother of Runes.

[bradstone]

So far barbarian ring has been the nuts when ever I see it. This deck gets threshold super fast and its versatility has been amazing, especially with all the delvers running around I just really love that land.

I'm curious as to why people stopped running grove/punishing fire in this deck. I'm thinking of doing a combination of 3 punishing fire and 4 lightning bolts. I really love bolt, but some recurring removal that interacts with dredging sounds real good.

[Aggro_zombies]

I'm curious as to why people stopped running grove/punishing fire in this deck. I'm thinking of doing a combination of 3 punishing fire and 4 lightning bolts. I really love bolt, but some recurring removal that interacts with dredging sounds real good.

Grove of the Burnwillows is awkward. You can't fetch it, which lowers the number of lands you can fetch, which makes fetches worse in the long run. When you side out Punishing Fire, you're stuck with maindeck Groves, which is terrible because those generally aren't the matchups where you want to give the opponent life. A similar thing will happen if, say, your opponent sits on a Surgical Extraction until you activate Grove and put the Fire trigger on the stack.

The other half of the combo is pretty bad by itself as well. Two mana for two damage is not really where you want to be and postboard, if your opponent brought in Surgicals, they will often go straight for the Fire if you don't have Grove.

In short, Fire-Grove is like Henry Wadsworth Longfellow's Little Girl: when it's good, it's very, very good, but when it's bad, it's horrid.

[Rampart]

The fire/grove combo is also very slow.

I played the fire/grove combo for a couple months in my loam build and ended up cutting it. It looks so great on paper but when you are paying in actual games it just makes your already good match ups better

[trivial_matters]

Played in a small tournament (if you can call it that) with 12 people, 4 rounds.
My results were: UR Delver 2-1, UBr control 0-2, Maverick 1-1, Spiral Tide 1-2.

I should have beaten Maverick. Against UBr featuring Snare and Jace with Go for the Throat, Bolt and Terminate my creatures couldn't stick due to removal and Snapcaster Mage for removal. In game one, when we were both topdecking on an empty board I kept drawing lands and lost. Faithless Looting would've come in handy here.

Against Spiral Tide, I should've probably waited a bit with my Blasts to counter Time Spiral; instead I was quite aggressive and in game 2 I went for the first Merchant Scroll but he still won. Any tips on what is best to counter?

[bradstone]

Grove of the Burnwillows is awkward. You can't fetch it, which lowers the number of lands you can fetch, which makes fetches worse in the long run. When you side out Punishing Fire, you're stuck with maindeck Groves, which is terrible because those generally aren't the matchups where you want to give the opponent life. A similar thing will happen if, say, your opponent sits on a Surgical Extraction until you activate Grove and put the Fire trigger on the stack.

The other half of the combo is pretty bad by itself as well. Two mana for two damage is not really where you want to be and postboard, if your opponent brought in Surgicals, they will often go straight for the Fire if you don't have Grove.

In short, Fire-Grove is like Henry Wadsworth Longfellow's Little Girl: when it's good, it's very, very good, but when it's bad, it's horrid.

Well put I deffinitely agree. I was running punishing fire in the first builds I was making but I dropped it after a while because of what's been talked about above and I felt like I found myself stalling to often or giving them to much health dragging out lost games.

I've got a list down right now that I like a lot after taking suggestions from this thread I filled my 3 flex spots. I'm just curious however, how important you guys think it is to utilize the 1cmc spells. I've only got 4 right now out of the mainboard, all of which are lightning bolts. Is it really not s problem since were hoping go get that turn 1 diamond anyways ?

[Aggro_zombies]

Well put I deffinitely agree. I was running punishing fire in the first builds I was making but I dropped it after a while because of what's been talked about above and I felt like I found myself stalling to often or giving them to much health dragging out lost games.

I've got a list down right now that I like a lot after taking suggestions from this thread I filled my 3 flex spots. I'm just curious however, how important you guys think it is to utilize the 1cmc spells. I've only got 4 right now out of the mainboard, all of which are lightning bolts. Is it really not s problem since were hoping go get that turn 1 diamond anyways ?

It's better not to rely on Mox Diamond to solve your deck's mana curve problems. Furthermore, if you open with land, go and the opponent opens with land, Hierarch, go, or Stifles your fetch, or gets a fast flipped Delver, or whatever, you'll be grateful for cheap, early answers.

[trivial_matters]

Grim Lavamancer is a solid 1-drop. Often you can cycle on your first turn. All in all though, this deck is slow and needs time to get going.

Lightning Bolt is great at the moment.

[bradstone]

Sorry if the way I worded that was wierd, you guys misunderstand me. I agree 100% that lightning bolt is the nuts right now. What I meant to ask, is if the deck should have more than 4 1cmc spells, like IoK, Thoughtsieze, and darkblast, or are 4 bolts simply sufficient enough to keep the heat off for the first couple of turns until we get rolling.

edit: Also I know a lot of people are supporters of grim lavamancer, but when I played with him he wasn't so great in the first few turns, and that's when I really needed him the most. He takes away from goyf, scavenging ooze, and life from the loam

[Aggro_zombies]

Sorry if the way I worded that was wierd, you guys misunderstand me. I agree 100% that lightning bolt is the nuts right now. What I meant to ask, is if the deck should have more than 4 1cmc spells, like IoK, Thoughtsieze, and darkblast, or are 4 bolts simply sufficient enough to keep the heat off for the first couple of turns until we get rolling.

edit: Also I know a lot of people are supporters of grim lavamancer, but when I played with him he wasn't so great in the first few turns, and that's when I really needed him the most. He takes away from goyf, scavenging ooze, and life from the loam

IoK is a powerful card in the right matchups. I don't know about starting it, or how many you'd want to start and how many you'd want to side, but I like having access to that kind of effect.

Thoughtseize is less attractive than IoK because of the life loss. The number of 4+ cc cards you actually care about is pretty limited, so it's not a card I'd want to start but maybe a card I'd want to sideboard. Most of the cards it hits that IoK doesn't are non-creatures, so Duress may just be better.

Darkblast is eh. The dredge component of it is so-so and Deathmark kills most of the creatures you'd want to DB, and several more besides (like Knight and Tarmogoyf). Tribal linears aren't really relevant these days, so I'd run Deathmark in the main before I ran DB. The only advantage I can see to DB is the ability to hit an unflipped Delver and V Clique, which I guess is fine if you're expecting a lot of RUG/Tempo.

People should test Faithless Looting. I've warmed up to the card significantly since it came out but I'm not really playing Constructed anymore, so I have no motivation to get testing done.

Grim Lavamancer is actually not bad. Fetchlands, burn spells, and anything you pitch to Looting make fine early fodder, and the card can just dominate late when you have the board presence to win but need to punch through. Hell, you can feed him by casting a Mox Diamond and not pitching a land, which is relevant more often than you might think (either because you don't have a land to pitch or because you don't need even more mana).

[razvan]

I haven't played legacy much in the past month or so, but the resurgence of Sneak and Show will mean we need to adapt.

Inquisition is not the one-all, end-all, but it does help against the other boogey-men: RUG Delver and Maverick. It's also a nice stepping stone against Sneak and Show.

I remember Tony mentioning he hates discard because he cannot play too much of it in his deck. It is not effective if you only have 3 TS, but it was necessary.

If you now have 7-8 MD/SB, then it will be quite effective, stranding their big monsters in their hand while you beat down with a Goyf. Keep in mind that even if they get Sneak Attack down and cannot activate it yet, it's not over.

Also, Lilianas are really good against Show and Tell as well. Not as much when they show Griselbrand, but that's the nature of that stupid deck.

[Aggro_zombies]

Honestly, the biggest problem you have against combo decks like Sneak-Show is how much damn mana you run. If this deck was Jund midrange or Jund aggro with 22-ish lands, it would be in much better shape.

But here, if you maindeck IoKs and have Duress/Thoughtseize side, the first things you'll want to drop when boarding will be shit like Maelstrom Pulse and EE (neither of which get you anywhere). Depending on your build, that may be all you have to drop to bring in your sideboard discard. However, the problem still remains that you have infinite mana in your deck; you will lose way too many games because they countered your only clock and then leisurely drew themselves into the combo while you leisurely drew yourself into some Mox Diamonds/Life from the Loams/lands/Dark Confidants/LANDS/stuff that doesn't kill the opponent, or they countered your only disruption spell and then killed you.

This is, incidentally, why I really don't like non-blue decks as answers to combo. Blue has Brainstorm and Ponder to ensure it sees the right mix of disruption and clock from turn one, counters that can be cast for free and mitigate topdecking from the combo deck, and pretty much any mix of clock it wants. Even Maverick can kind of get there vs. Sneak-Show because of hate bears and Karakas combined with a high density of beats. But this deck has at least six mana sources too many to reliably rumble with combo.

[trivial_matters]

Inquisition of Kozilek sucks against Sneak Show. Thoughtseize is strictly better. I'm not convinced that Liliana is any good. She only deals with Show and Tell into Emrakul, but I suppose the discard is useful.

If you really want to hate on Sneak Show I'd suggest running 4+ Pyroblasts/Red Elemental Blasts, Thoughtseize and Revoker or Needle. Even then, I don't think the matchup will be nearly positive for Aggro Loam.

[Kich867]

Inquisition of Kozilek sucks against Sneak Show. Thoughtseize is strictly better. I'm not convinced that Liliana is any good. She only deals with Show and Tell into Emrakul, but I suppose the discard is useful.

If you really want to hate on Sneak Show I'd suggest running 4+ Pyroblasts/Red Elemental Blasts, Thoughtseize and Revoker or Needle. Even then, I don't think the matchup will be nearly positive for Aggro Loam.

My plan is to just board in Pyroblasts and Hit/Run, use show and tell to drop an extra land into play, and attempt to blow them out with Hit. Any of their options should pretty much kill them in the event Hit resolves.

[bradstone]

Inquisition of Kozilek sucks against Sneak Show. Thoughtseize is strictly better. I'm not convinced that Liliana is any good. She only deals with Show and Tell into Emrakul, but I suppose the discard is useful.

If you really want to hate on Sneak Show I'd suggest running 4+ Pyroblasts/Red Elemental Blasts, Thoughtseize and Revoker or Needle. Even then, I don't think the matchup will be nearly positive for Aggro Loam.

I agree that thoughtsieze is clearly better for this matchup as IoK hits nothing really relevant except for show and tell. I'm not sure why you think Liliana is bad in this matchup though, the last two times I've played sneak and show I won because of her. Against Sneak and Show I bring in 3 thoughtsieze, 2 REBS, and 3 Devestating dreams. If you pull off a dreams against most any combo decks its going to be a total bomb, especially if you've already been waste landing them as well.