Adapting to Griselbrand-Show and Tell Decks

[catmint]

Aren't you missing something? Sneak Attack player has a Griselbrand at that point in play. Knight can't attack through it, so it's only mission is to fetch Karakas in hope Sneaky player will miss in his draw 14. Due to sol lands and Lotus Petals it's very realistic that Sneak Attack player will just one-shot Maverick player the following turn. Something like McDarby did a few weeks back against Rock player on camera.

No I am not. The following scenario for you in detail:
1) S&T resolves: Griselbrand and KoR are put into play

2) KoR then fetches up Karakas in his turn. Karakas bounces Griselbrand and in your example you draw 14 cards bringing you to 6 or less life.

3)Turn is passed to Sneak&Show. Since you are on that low life you have 1 turn to sneak in emrakul since you probably won't survive the following attack step.

As I said it is possible to win the next turn but if maverick has a thalia/wasteland/teeg they are able to disrupt. If you only draw 7 and decide to wait another turn you make it more difficult because you need to sneak in emrakul twice (since karakas is already untapped). If you do not want to open yourself up to pridemage disruption you then need 2rrr in one turn.

[theBloody]

Can't wait to drop my Aluren thank to opponents SnT.

[menace13]

Can't wait to drop my Aluren thank to opponents SnT.

And then not be able to resolve a single relevant creature against 14 cards.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Of course it's not a lost cause, but the main issue is that before printing of Griselbrand Maverick had atleast 50% matchup against Sneak Attack decks. All thanks to Knight + Karakas interaction. Nowadays that doesn't matter anymore since Griselbrand effectively negates that interactions and enables one-shot kills the following turn.

Yes Grisel is really good here, but pre-Grisel they would have been putting Progen into play and putting you on a 2 turn clock with a Karakas proof 10/10 super wall in play on your next turn, so depending on their life total and your board position they speed up their clock by a turn maybe. You still have a turn to Wasteland/play hate bears/disrupt them in other ways. Since Karakas is in play in this case they still need 6 mana to play + activate Sneak, if Thalia is in play make that 7. They still need Emrakul + Sneak Attack, which is a 2 card combo they still have a small chance not to draw + have enough to activate. Like I said, Maverick vs. Sneak / Show is almost 100% speed bumps. You don't have the blow out cards but almost every card in your deck is capable of effecting them in some way.

Hate bears slow them down.
Knight gets Karakas then puts them on a clock.
Cavern nullifies counters to your guys.
GSZ gets Teeg/Knight or Arbor to put you outside of Daze range turn2.
Noble puts you out of Daze range turn 2 when you are able to drop hatebears.
Mother makes it almost impossible for most Sneak/Show decks to answer Teeg and friends once active.
Pridemage makes it risky for them to leave out Sneak for a turn if they have to tap out for it.
Aven puts a hurting on fetches and Intuition.

[(nameless one)]

Why wouldn't anyone just play The Mighty Quinn?

In a meta with little CounterTop and Storm combo, it's actually awesome.

Maindeck answers from a lot of creature-based decks from StP to Humility and can go toe to toe with Blade control.

[theBloody]

And then not be able to resolve a single relevant creature against 14 cards.

Depend. I can react to Griselbrand active ability, after they pay 7 life. Then they active it again. If I have enough cards I can go off with their 14 cards on stack.

[Esper3k]

Of course it's not a lost cause, but the main issue is that before printing of Griselbrand Maverick had atleast 50% matchup against Sneak Attack decks. All thanks to Knight + Karakas interaction. Nowadays that doesn't matter anymore since Griselbrand effectively negates that interactions and enables one-shot kills the following turn.

Yeah think about that - a GW deck having that good of game against combo. Seems wrong to me!

[DragoFireheart]

Yeah think about that - a GW deck having that good of game against combo. Seems wrong to me!

- No, it sounds like Starcraft balance rather than Rock-paper-scissors.

[Ignithas_]

Yeah think about that - a GW deck having that good of game against combo. Seems wrong to me!

Only U decks should have a good MU against Combo. It's like if UW have a good MU against aggro. Oh wait...

[Fossil4182]

As a call out: Has anyone done actual testing with Griselbrand Show & Tell versus some archetypes or at the very least have a decent sample of data on its match-ups? I'm not talking about observations, feelings or experience playing in a weekly tournament, but actual testing the match-ups pre-board, post board, on the play, on the draw, different configurations, etc.

[Esper3k]

As a call out: Has anyone done actual testing with Griselbrand Show & Tell versus some archetypes or at the very least have a decent sample of data on its match-ups? I'm not talking about observations, feelings or experience playing in a weekly tournament, but actual testing the match-ups pre-board, post board, on the play, on the draw, different configurations, etc.

I would look at the Sneak Attack deck in the Established deck section to start...

[Koby]

As a call out: Has anyone done actual testing with Griselbrand Show & Tell versus some archetypes or at the very least have a decent sample of data on its match-ups? I'm not talking about observations, feelings or experience playing in a weekly tournament, but actual testing the match-ups pre-board, post board, on the play, on the draw, different configurations, etc.

I've started some testing with menace13 playing a few sample matchups. I'm starting an intense playtest session via MTGO Daily Events, so I'll let you know how it goes.

So far, Bant (KotR, Jace, FoW, Karakas, Clique MD) is 100% pre/post board against Sneak Show, based on 4 games. :P

The other S&T decks can't really beat Griselbrand reliably. Something about drawing 14 cards into multitude of counters beats them silly.

[phazonmutant]

If S&T decks get more prevalent, then it seems like ones that win as soon as their thing comes down should be favored. That pushes me to think Hive Mind or Dream Halls could be somewhat favored against Sneak and Show and Hypergenesis.

But if you're looking to beat Sneak & Show and Hypergenesis specifically, Humility and Ensnaring Bridge have to be the way to go.
Mono-White Stax seems pretty reasonable - it beat me up when I was playing a Show & Tell Griselbrand deck. It has tools specific, maindeck tools against Hypergenesis and Show and Tell and can blow up their greedy manabases (Waste, 'Geddon). Chalice on 1 and Wasteland are really good against Canadian Thresh too. The deck has never been super consistent, but it seems to be well positioned right now.

Enchantress doesn't seem bad either. It also can play Humility, and Solitary Confinement shuts off Dream Halls and Sneak and Show (kinda).

[Esper3k]

Enchantress doesn't seem bad either. It also can play Humility, and Solitary Confinement shuts off Dream Halls and Sneak and Show (kinda).

Solitary Confinement is pretty bad against Emrakul though...

Not to mention Enchantress usually isn't fast enough to keep up with those types of decks, imo.

[Arianrhod]

It isn't, but I'll grant that Elephant Grass is a house against Griselbrand and any random Progenituses they happen to still be running. Emmy's definitely the problem for Enchantress....otherwise I think they could lean solely on Grass.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Why wouldn't anyone just play The Mighty Quinn?

In a meta with little CounterTop and Storm combo, it's actually awesome.

Maindeck answers from a lot of creature-based decks from StP to Humility and can go toe to toe with Blade control.

Not such a bad thought, really. I was always a little tempted to build that deck, but not wanting to buy a Moat has always prevented me. I'm pretty sure Quinn would be played more if time constraints weren't such a factor for it, and if more people knew it existed in the first place. Also, it requires you to think several turns ahead and precisely manage your turns on a level comparative to Solidarity or Mono Blue Control, without actually being a blue deck (which most people tend to assume is a better selection in an eternal format.)

[menace13]

Depend. I can react to Griselbrand active ability, after they pay 7 life. Then they active it again. If I have enough cards I can go off with their 14 cards on stack.

Aluren has to resolve a Recruiter unless you have more than 1 in hand it isnt easy, The other creatures are pretty Irrelevant.

Grisel > Dream Halls. Haven't tested Hive Mind but before Flying Bargain it wasn't favored.

[Esper3k]

It isn't, but I'll grant that Elephant Grass is a house against Griselbrand and any random Progenituses they happen to still be running. Emmy's definitely the problem for Enchantress....otherwise I think they could lean solely on Grass.

Yeah Elephant Grass is your best bet, but if they drop Griselbrand, there will also be a pretty decent chance they can get Emrakul out shortly afterwards.

Elephant Grass is definitely better vs Hypergenesis than Sneaky Show since Hypergenesis also runs Progenitus and I guess Maelstrom Wanderer these days?

[Pippin]

Yes Grisel is really good here, but pre-Grisel they would have been putting Progen into play and putting you on a 2 turn clock with a Karakas proof 10/10 super wall in play on your next turn, so depending on their life total and your board position they speed up their clock by a turn maybe.

Progenitus wasn't a problem since it could be raced with batterskull (I've witnessed it myself). So yeah - Griselbrand is all the difference here, and a huge one. Yawgmoth's Bargain is banned in format and we now have one that is on crack and win condition on it's own if needed.

[Fossil4182]

Just from an observation standpoint, the deck would seem to have a problem with permanent based hate. The deck only runs 8 - 10 counters and post board has access to 3-4 ways to interact with the board via bounce. If, as I gather, the real issue is Griselbrand's draw seven ability.....

Permanent based ways to deal with Griselbrand's draw seven ability:

-Cursed Totem: Activated abilities of creatures can't be activated.
-Humility: All creatures lose all abilities and are 1/1.
-Damping Matrix: Activated abilities of artifacts and creatures can't be activated unless they're mana abilities.
-Linvala, Keeper of Silence: Activated abilities of creatures your opponents control can't be activated.
-Chains of Mephistopheles: If a player would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in his or her draw step each turn, that player discards a card instead. If the player discards a card this way, he or she draws a card. If the player doesn't discard a card this way, he or she puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
-Underworld Dreams: Whenever an opponent draws a card, Underworld Dreams deals 1 damage to him or her.
-Suppression Field: Activated abilities cost 2 more to activate unless they're mana abilities.
-Pithing Needle: As Pithing Needle enters the battlefield, name a card. Activated abilities of sources with the chosen name can't be activated unless they're mana abilities.
-Phyrexian Revoker: As Phyrexian Revoker enters the battlefield, name a nonland card. Activated abilities of sources with the chosen name can't be activated.

This list is not complete, but the omissions are just flat out unplayable.

Cursed Totem has some added utility against other decks such as Maverick and UW Stoneblade. Damping Matrix is just a more expensive version of Totem, but does offer some utility against decks that abuse Top, UW Stoneblade and Affinity (but that's not really a deck....). Cursed Totem could work in a dedicated control deck as a sideboard answer with overlapping utility. However, I don't know if control is viable right now.

Suppression Field doesn't feel like a great answer. It doesn't stop Griselbrand's ability (just taxes it), and its symmetrical meaning unless you're playing a deck without activated abilities, it disrupts your deck's game plan.

Humility and Linvala, Keeper of Silence are both great answers. However, both seem too expensive to be practical solutions. Linvala, Keeper of Silence could work in Maverick given it can accelerate it out as early as turn three. I've seen Linvala, Keeper in Silence in some Maverick lists, but without a reliable way to tutor for it, I don't see this dramatically changing the match up. Humility is probably too slow at four mana. Humility is usually reserved for dedicated control decks and I don't know if one is viable given the prevalence of UW Stoneblade, RUG and S&T. Maybe UW Miracle if it needs another way to deal with Griselbrand.

Underworld Dreams is awesome, but doesn't fit well into any existing decks with the BBB casting cost except maybe Pox (even still a deck?)

Chains of Mephistopheles is an interesting card. It functionally changes Griselbrand's ability from generating card advantage to virtual card advantage. It also punishes Brainstorm unlike any other card in the format and makes cantrips much less effective. However, its probably too narrow and at best stops your opponent from winning/gaining an advantage as opposed to pushing one's deck toward winning.

Pithing Needle is probably the most practical answer for most decks. It shuts down the ability and is also a live draw if you end up with a second (naming Sneak Attack). It has added utility against decks such as Maverick, UW Stoneblade, Top based control decks, etc. Phyrexian Revoker is the next best alternative, but it comes down a turn later and loses some of the cross over utility because it its a durable. It is worth noting that being able to target Lion's Eye Diamond and mana dorks with Phyrexian Revoker can be fun.