Enlightened Tutor sideboards might work decent here. Phyrexian Revoker doesn't seem too shabby either (which can be easily combined for obv. reasons).
In response...Hypothek!
Revoker is actually a fairly decent answer given that it dodges Spell Pierce hate.Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher
Players need to just add pithing needel back to their sideboards. It affects a ton of cards in legacy for a very small mana investment. I do agree however that Griselbrand is the most powerful 'creature' printed to date.
As an Enchantress player, I have to dispute the notion that Elephant Grass "is a house against Griselbrand." Griselbrand draws 14 cards, which usually finds an Echoing Truth to bounce it and/or Emrakul, who can swing when his controller pays 2, and/or lands and Lotus Petals to pay for Emrakul's attack. Elephant Grass is useful at buying you time when they DON'T have Griselbrand and when you force them to be on the Sneak Attack or Through the Breach plan. If they have Griselbrand, you're probably going to lose. Humility is not the answer in Enchantress, either. Sneak and Show has lots of ways to dig for an answer. Meanwhile, you have either no clock or a pathetic clock, and you're not likely to get there unless you already have Enchantress's Presence out or Sigil of the Empty Throne, which is unlikely because their deck is generally a lot faster. Ultimately, the key to this matchup is to stop the Sneak and Show player from drawing 7-14 cards, and that seems to be the key for most decks paired against Sneak and Show.
Taking a wider view of decks and cards, here are cards I like against Griselbrand:
Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, Cursed Totem, Stifle. If you're in red, Runeflare Trap eats their Force of Will. If you're in blue, Gilded Drake steals their creature when they Show and Tell. Counterspells, discard, faster combos and Emrakul are all good.
I hate to give up my tech, but Seal of Removal has been great for me in RUG. Works a lot like preemptive graveyard hate. Also, not too bad against KotR.
I always liked the seal of removal tech, but aren't you "giving up" the tech once it became bad ? (with the printing of griselbrand)
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You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
Aren't we getting back to the reason that everyone complained about Hive Mind? Of all the answers to Grizlebees that have been listed so far, only Humility does anything about Emrakul. When it's essentially a crap shoot (for both players) as to which fatty they're going to drop, and there's very little crossover between the answers for each. Seems to me like the stack is the only place to beat the whole deck, and not just half of it.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
I don't disagree that the stack is the best place to beat this deck. However, most of the thread has indicated the "draw seven cards" ability of Griselbrand was the main issue. Based on that I compiled a list of permanent based answers to that ability which may have cross over applications in other match-ups allowing them to be included in sideboards.
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Not to knock the title of thread, but there should probably be a discussion on discussion "Adapting to the RUG decks"
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...acy_Opens.html
The data from early last month suggests that Show & Tell really isn't that popular and only appears as about 3% of the metagame between the Orlando and Madison events. The data is still incomplete given Sneak and Show's showings at Nashville and Columbus (though Columbus saw a marked drop off compared to Nashville in terms of placement of Sneak and Show).
Metamorph (or any other clone effect) doesn't work through show and tell to deal with legendary fatties put into play via S&T. You have to cast it afterwards and it will likely die to countermagic, especially with griselbrand.
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You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
Cursed Totem seems to be the most reasonable "answer" as it has wider applications versus other Tier 1/Tier 2 decks (Maverick, Junk, Stoneblade to a degree, etc). It can come down relativly early and can be played in any sideboard due to it being an artifact. True, it may hurt you as well, but I'd much rather not be able to activate my Stoneforge Mystic if it means I don't have to deal with my opponent drawing 14 cards at once.
Like a boss.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
My elf tech is revealed!!!!
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I think the general gist of everything I see here ends in one point - If you can't stop Show and Tell, you need two cards to deal with Griselbrand - One to stop them from drawing 7 cards, and another to stop them from beating you to death with a huge 7/7 flappy lifesucker.
Humility is the only card I'm aware of that does both of these things. Read up on your layers and run this card like a boss.
I don't disagree that Humility is among the best answers to the Show and Tell deck in theory. However, can Humility come down in time to matter? Traditionally, Humility has appeared in control shells. If the Show and Tell resolves the deck's name sake against a control deck, then how does the control deck overcome the Show and Tell player drawing 7 - 14 cards giving the player enough countermagic magic to stop the control player from resolving Humility?
Sorry if someone else has mentioned this already, but wouldn't you just put Humility into play off of SnT?
That's the best scenario. Sneak Show players have been adapting to going mostly for Sneak Attack plan by either cheating it into play with Show and Tell or hard casting.
Sneak Attack is the stronger strategy in this deck, and using any opportunity to utilize it is the main goal.
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I think the Bargain ability is 99% of the problem, not the 7/7 Flying Lifelink body it's attached to. I mean, 7/7 Flying Lifelink really isn't that impressive when compared to other fatties with vanilla attributes (vanilla as is Flying, Deathtouch, Shroud, Haste, etc.).
If they cheat in Sneak Attack with S&T, you still get to drop your Humility and likely win the game. As for them adapting to go for Sneak Attack, sure, they can try that but that actually seems terrible as a gameplan. Sneak and Show is already not the most consistent of decks and if they reject half their enablers (because they might or might not face Humility), I don't think they're going to win all that many games against me. Defending against a five mana win is also a hell of a lot easier than stopping a three mana win.
@Arsenal: Yeah, the Bargain is the problem, definitely. If you can stop that, Grisel is just much worse than Emrakul would be - a problem we all have learned to reasonably deal with by now.
Over all, Humility for (white-based) control decks, Linvala for Maverick (also nice to S&T in) and Needle/Revoker for everybody - combined with some Emmi/Legend-hate - so far seems to do the job surprisingly well given how concerned I was with Sneak and Show when I started testing against it.
Oblivion Ring on it's own has also been surprisingly solid because it totally negates S&T for Emmi while also forcing their hand on Griselbranding (leaving them only with a great 7 instead of ~15 cards to work with).
The deck is still obnoxious because it has a three mana two card win the game combo (which is pretty ridiculous) but so far it looks eminently beatable especially because of its inconsistency (in my experience it'll lose about one game in five to itself against any kind of resistance).
/edit: @Taco: they also need two cards to get Griselbrand into play in the first place, meaning even if you need to spend two cards to neutralize it, you're still breaking even. That doesn't even take into account that they now have to set up the whole two card combo again. Humility is insane against them because it effectively 2 for 1s them AND sticks around to make their deck do nothing.
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As Torpid mentioned, you would. Whereas racing a Show and Tell with Humility is out of the question, racing Sneak Attack isn't necessarily so, and you can stop Sneak Attack in other ways, such as with a Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, Gaddock Teeg, Blue Elemental Blast, whatever.
Attempting to resolve Humility shouldn't always be the first priority. Keeping one hanging around in your hand is often a better idea, as not only does it shut off the S&T/Fatty plan, the S&T player doesn't always know you've shut off this plan, unless you happen to Enlightened Tutor for it.
And unlike the rest of the world, I happen to think that a 7/7 Flying Lifelinker is still something you have to deal with if you want to win the game. Not saying it's difficult to do so, but just because you drop the Cursed Totem/Pithing Needle doesn't necessarily mean you've stopped the Griselbrand - You've still got to get that STP and power it through a potentially disasterous Misdirection. And I'm not saying it's bad to spend two cards to stop Griselbrand - You just won't always have both pieces.
Am I missing something here? Can they not just put the Griselbrand trigger on the stack and respond with another trigger?
Then chain of vapor your o-ring off the 14 cards they draw?
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