I agree on tapping out, and these were essentially the tempo cards I was referring to.Decks that run Tombstalker do so because they can tap out every turn and not care due to running stuff like daze, fow, and snuff out. We dont have that same luxury. Im curious if you find that Tombstalker is better than Snapcaster in a SFM-Jace shell. On paper, i dont see the advantages. Snapcaster 's value increases greatly when running proactive stuff like thoughtseize and inq of kozilek.
rchinnock- Hope I havent messed you up with my suggestions. To be clear I am confident that an esper america TEMPO shell would be strong with approximately 11-13 threats (stalkers, SFM, delvers for example) along with the aformentioned tempo cards.
Conversely esper stoneblade is very strong eschewing the tempo plan for a lategame with bombs like jace, entreat and CA via SCM, souls, SFM, terminus and so on. I do not think a mixture of these two strategies will be as strong as either individual strategy though, which is currently where your builds are residing IMO.
I really like the idea of EE maindeck right now since it answers everything barring plainswalkers for the most, which vindicate can do either main or from the board.
I will say this, tombstalker is very well positioned right now IME. As you stated it trumps burn, all of tempo thresh barring postboard submerge and races maverick easily if protected. Stoneblades removal can be a problem with SCM but pinpoint discard + countermagic really improves this and stalkers clock is really only 3 turns to find an answer or lose. Tombstalker also laughs at counterbalance which is becoming more and more relevant. I switched from tempo thresh back to TA mainly for tombstalkers discard and blacks sideboard power and I havent looked back.
So anyway if what you got is working then by all means keep it, rogue decks are fucking cool. If not then I would suggest focusing more on one strategy or the other.
Tombstalker - Ultimately I agree that you should go either more aggro or more control. However, I don't think that the only viable control version of Esper blade is based around top and terminus. I used to play the following list, which for me worked very well:
4 stoneforge mystic
1 batterskull
1 sword of X&Y
4 snapcaster mage
4 dark confidant
1 vendillion clique
4 force of will
4 spell snare
4 swords to plowshares
2 vindicate
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
3 jace, the mindsculptor
22 lands (0-3 mishra's factories - to help out with equipment package, but which could easily become wastelands).
The thing I liked about the deck is that you were controlling but you had a lot of cheap and powerful cards. The main difference between it and other SFM lists was dark confidant, which could win the game on his own and, as I said, be played off of SFM effectively. Right now, in this meta, I would want more answers to nimble mongoose and combo, but otherwise, I like the deck still. I think that something like this, but somehow fitting 4 thoughtseize/inquisition effects into it, and having more ways to effectively deal with aggro decks (RUG/RU tempo and Maverick) would be pretty good. The best ways to do this would probably be EE/Liliana for the aggro problems (esp. Mongoose and Mother of Runes), and different counters (for combo - maybe spell pierce or some counterspells). You would probably have to cut the V-Clique or the Dark Confidants, but I do like both of them. Dark confidant might be too weak to most removal and spell snare, but he is really powerful. Possibly ponders could be cut for spell pierce, Vindicates for EE or Liliana. This is the general direction I have been going. Your advice has been very helpful, though, in trying to figure out how to make some kind of a list like this work. It may come down to either Dark Confidant or Jace, however, since you only have so many blue cards that you can cut, and only so many slow card-advantage stuff that you can play in addition to your removal, counters, discard, draw spells etc. But maybe they can both be fitted, i don't know. It is possible that simply the old UW Stoneblade list could be outfitted with discard and could be good. It could be something like this:
4 stoneforge mystic
1 batterskull
1 sword of feast and famine
3 snapcaster mage
3 vendillion clique
4 force of will
2-3 spell snare/spell pierce
2 counterspell
4 swords to plowshares
2 engineered explosives
2 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
4 brainstorm
3-4 jace, the mind sculptor
22 lands (some number of factories or wastelands)
I am still convinced that V-Clique is very good against everything except lingering souls, and in general I think that it is actually better than lingering souls, working better with your other instant-speed stuff, disrupting combo, and being a faster clock in relation to its mana cost. So that's why there are three of them in there, and no lingering souls. This list is built to beat things besides Tom Martell's Esper Stoneblade, at the expense of being bad against his deck (or at least slightly dis-favored).
Last edited by rchinnock; 05-30-2012 at 09:22 PM.
Play Geist if putting control and combo on a fast clock if that's your rationale behind cutting Snapcaster for Stalker. Also, my re: Snuff out and daze was more about being able to tap out asap for a stalker while still being able to answer opponent threats, not about filling your yard. If you want to play stalker, discard, cantrips, counters, liliana and jace, shouldn't you just play a team america variant? Explain to me what stalker does for SFM-Jace decks that isnt already at our disposal.Originally Posted by rchinnock
@ rchinnock
Delver is pretty good against combo and Thresh. Against combo he gives you a cheap clock that is easy to play while leaving up counter mana, casting discard and using Wasteland. Against Thresh Delver blocks Mongoose and opposing Delvers. The counters they play are pretty bad against it and even if it just eats a bolt that helps you stick a Stoneforge Mystic.
I was surprised that you found Lingering Souls mediocre against Thresh. In my experience Lingering Souls is one of the key cards in the Thresh match up. I run two Intangible Virtue as part of my sideboard plan against them and have been impressed. They have a very hard time beating 2/2 vigilant spirits.
There are a lot of ways to build this deck. Most with valid arguments behind them (I can't really get behind the Tombstalker idea). It really all comes down to meta game and play style. My meta right now has quite a bit of Thresh and combo so I am sticking with Delver but there are certainly situations where other builds might be better.
Hey yeah I am not really up on the tombstalker idea I just posted it as an idea in response to a post from someone else suggesting a list with him in it. I think it might have a little potential, based on a Modern Esper control list that I played before the cantrips were banned, but there are probably better options in Legacy. The last list I have put up in my last post (the second list in the post) is the closest thing to what I would want to play right now, I think. V-Clique, Snapcaster, and Stoneforge are the main critters I want to play. Also regarding Lingering Souls against Thresh - maybe youre right, I should test it more. Lingering souls is great, and maybe I haven't given it enough of a chance. To recap, here is my current list:
4 stoneforge mystic
1 batterskull
1 sword of feast and famine
3 snapcaster mage
2-3 vendillion clique
4 force of will
2-3 spell snare/spell pierce
2 counterspell
4 swords to plowshares
2 engineered explosives
2 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
4 brainstorm
3-4 jace, the mind sculptor
22 lands (some number of factories or wastelands)
Terminus and Entreat are both so ridiculously good that I find any Blade Control list that doesn't play them to be suspect.
thanks, you right have nice day :)
Miracle control, imo, is a completely different deck than Stoneblade. Miracle control eschews the SFM plan and goes all in on the traditional UW control board control-stabilize-then drop a bomb (Entreat, Jace, Elspeth) to win-plan. Well posititined deck in the meta as it beats Maverick pretty consistently. And has game versus Delver due to CounterTop and terminus. But miracle control isnt stoneblade.
I kind of agree and disagree with what your saying. I agree that some of the miracle cards are good enough to replace other cards from the traditional stoneblade deck; but I disagree that that would make it a whole new deck. I run an Azorus Stoneblade deck and I don't see how replacing wrath with entreats or replacing geist with R-Angel or even adding a couple terminus in the place of a ponder or a spell snare makes it a whole new deck type. I changed some 4-6 cards maindeck and actually have the same ratio of creatures, lands, and spells. Yes the deck hits the current meta a little better; but it actually still plays the stoneblade package and uses that as it's primary win-con. Then again I had 2x elspeth in the deck with 3x jace for months though, but having alternate win-cons is something I needed for my meta. Oh and although Terminus hits maverick and other aggro decks quite well, it doesn't fix every match up; although it really does help.
PS it is still Azorus Stoneblade to me, even if it is shifting a little to Azorus Stone-Miracle-Blade.
Most Miracle lists run CounterTop, so that's 6-8 cards not found in Stoneblade. Entreat amd Terminus is another 4-6 cards. That's 10-14 cards; imo, enough to warrant a whole new decktype. Check the UW Control thread for Miracle business.
Also the only two Miracle UW Control lists that have placed in a Starcity 5K (or any other major tournament as far as I know) have not played stoneforge. They are literally an almost entirely different list. The common cards are: snapcaster, brainstorm, counterspell, Vendillion Clique, spell snare, Jace, and maybe Elspeth. These are cards that most UW decks would run, and don't make it the same archetype as Stoneblade.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...1&iddeck=60781
Top8 at Bazaar of Moxen (722 players in the Legacy event)
This Deck combines SFM with Miracle spells, allthough interesting i think it was due to the miracles that the pilot placed good with the deck.
we seem to forget that stoneblade also started with completely different cards. Standstill/ancestral visions for example. And esperblade also has entirely different cards than normal UW stoneblade and still they are in the same thread. So i guess miracle stoneblade is just another variation and is authorised to be discussed here.
I don't like MTG, i just like legacy control decks.Esper stoneblade
I run five miracles maindeck as well as the Stoneforge Mystic package and CounterTop. The decks are not fundamentally different, and it's not like regular stone blade is putting up any results.
What's your list? I've been playing the SFM + Miracles + CB deck too.
Malakai - normal Stoneblade has made some showings. It might be that it simply has to find a way to adapt to the current meta - not that it is necessarily worse than the Miracles control lists. Also - most of the Miracles lists that have been doing well (that is, all of the ones that one have placed in any Starcity 5k's) have not had stoneforge mystic. Not saying they shouldn't, but its not the norm. I think that there is probably a place in the meta for a more traditional stoneforge list - they have their own advantages that miracle lists don't - most notably the fact that they are more aggro-control, whereas the miracles lists are more controlling. They also tend to have more disruption against control (at least more than the miracle-stoneblade lists that don't run counterbalance), with discard and stuff. Not saying that traditional stoneforge is the right way to go, but I think it is definitely still a potentially viable option to pllay it without miracles.
Stoneblade and Counter Top are fundamentally different.The line has to be drawn somewhere. If you play Counter Top main you are playing a Counter Top deck even if you have Stoneforge as well. I would be interested to hear a moderators opinion on the subject.
I Went 4-0 at a small local tournament over the weekend playing an Esper list tuned to fight Thresh and combo. Delvers and Wastelands give you a lot more game against Thresh and combo. Intangible virtue in the sideboard was also pretty sweet. If I was able to play the GP in Atlanta this deck would be one of my top choices. Here is my list
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Lingering Souls
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Marsh Flats
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
3 Surgical extraction
2 Perish
2 Intangible Virtue
1 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Vendillion clique
1 Disenchant
1 Vindicate
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Zealous Persecution
I played against
Punishing Zoo 2-0
Canadian thresh (2-1)
Canadian thresh (2-0)
Merfolk/w Chalice (2-0)
Why Therapy over Thoughtseize?
The ability to hit more than 1 card at a time.
No loss of life.
Flashback (even though it can hurt).
Cheers and nice list even if I am not a fan of Esper and prefer Azorus.
As a Maverick player, it is difficult for us to deal with board sweeps or anytype, whether it is Pernicious Deed, Wrath, or Terminus. The downside to Terminus is that we can potentially Green Sun our targets back, but it does allow you to use your mana effectively. It seems better suited to a slow, grindy "Jace-em-out" deck though, more than a Lingering Souls list. Being able to slam a Terminus for W and follow up with a Jace is back-breaking enough that it should overcome most G/W games.
Entreat the Angels is another rough card for Maverick to deal with, but it's power might be dependant on the presence of BUG control in your meta. Seems fairly poor versus RUG as well, as it's too much of a late-game spell to matter.
Just observations from the darkside
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