All B/R update speculation.

[Reagens]

As always, i'm not asking for bans. I'm just saying my opinions. I think that BS is a problem card, and is almost always behind the dominant strategies of this format, with some spar exceptions here and there, like Maverick (Merfolk was an-anti BS deck, so born from BS too). A card like this, while not perceived as unfair, it is actually one of the main reasons many strategies percieved as "too good" are so.
For example, consider Mental Misstep. I'm of the opinion that without BS, MM would have been probably much less dominant because :
- the best target of MM would have been gone
- the ability to shuffle back MMs in the lategame would have been gone
We all know MM was the banned card (and i would say rightly so in the light of Snapcaster).

Mystical ban?
Mystical was bonkers etc... But imho a Storm deck without brainstorm would have been percieved a lot less "good" and maybe mystical wouldn't have been banned. Reanimator would have been a lot worse and i'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been touched.
IF they'll ever ban SnT or Delver (not that i think they will, SnT because it is nowhere as dominant as strategies usually are before they are nerfed, and Delver because it's a creature and wotc won't axe it period) they will axe decks that would still be good but not as eventually dominant without BS, because BS do all of the things those decks want; it give them protection, the ability to flip delver reliably and the ability to shuffle back redundant combo pieces for missing ones.
Imagine the new Doomsday deck becoming too good? Remove BS and the deck is way less efficient.

In short, i think keeping BS unbanned will lead to:
- a longer in general Banned list, while not right now
- more limited deck design space, aka: less cards being actually played in this format
- an excessive(?) prevalence of the color blue, especially at the expense of black
However banning BS would:
- make a lot(?) of people leave the format because its poster card is gone

I'm for the most card possible being played in this format, and in my opinion BS is an enabler that make a lot of strategies "too good" and consequentially limit both the variety of played decks and the number of cards that could be unbanned.

This is probably one of the faired arguments in the last few pages in the thread. Although I do agree with the logic and consider BS an enabler I also think that brainstorm is to legacy what the P9 is to vintage. There is no way they will axe it.

For the 'adapt' crowd. Yes, you are right. There is always a solution. There was probably an answer for flash as well.
I'm sure there was a perfect answer for mystical tutor (several if I remember correctly).
An answer for survival was also in the offering when they banned it.
Show and tell is in the same street. It's not that it is unbeatable (witness the rise of RUG delver), it just pushes out too many strategies. And although RUG delver has the better results it will be show and tell they go after.

[Esper3k]

The thing is people are saying Show & Tell is on the same level as Survival and the numbers have yet to show that.

I'm just saying it's too early to say if Show & Tell is too good now or not. We went through unbannings of Time Spiral and Entomb. We survived calls to have Brainstorm banned months back. Tarmogoyf still hasn't broken the format despite previous claims from people.

[Vacrix]

In regards to Brainstorm....

I think people are too often looking at Brainstorm in a vacuum; 'just ban Brainstorm and make all the blue less dominant'.

Well.. the problem with that is simply storm combo, which is another format favorite and defining archetype of the format. If you get rid of Brainstorm, blue players lose the consistency that allows them to beat back the storm combo players as well as compete with the other archetypes. Take BS away and I can only imagine that storm combo would get far better because Ux Tempo players would have more trouble without their best cantrip. As a storm combo player, I can't tell you how often I lose to Brainstorm. Not FoW, Brainstorm. I can play through a mere FoW, its just one protection spell. Brainstorm, though, can seal up the game by giving them +2 protection spells and a win condition instead of the shit they had in their hand.

It probably wouldn't kill U as a color but it would certainly change things drastically. Its not just one deck going under and the rest getting better. Its chain reactions that happen because one deck was losing to all the Tempo decks and now there are fewer of them or that matchup improves because of a lack of BS. Its hard to tell what would happen in a post-ban BS Legacy.

Also, there is that little thing about everyone loving to play Brainstorm because like half the players play U decks. You'd lose a lot of people to a Brainstorm ban.

[Aggro_zombies]

In regards to Brainstorm....

I think people are too often looking at Brainstorm in a vacuum; 'just ban Brainstorm and make all the blue less dominant'.

Well.. the problem with that is simply storm combo, which is another format favorite and defining archetype of the format. If you get rid of Brainstorm, blue players lose the consistency that allows them to beat back the storm combo players as well as compete with the other archetypes. Take BS away and I can only imagine that storm combo would get far better because Ux Tempo players would have more trouble without their best cantrip. As a storm combo player, I can't tell you how often I lose to Brainstorm. Not FoW, Brainstorm. I can play through a mere FoW, its just one protection spell. Brainstorm, though, can seal up the game by giving them +2 protection spells and a win condition instead of the shit they had in their hand.

It probably wouldn't kill U as a color but it would certainly change things drastically. Its not just one deck going under and the rest getting better. Its chain reactions that happen because one deck was losing to all the Tempo decks and now there are fewer of them or that matchup improves because of a lack of BS. Its hard to tell what would happen in a post-ban BS Legacy.

Also, there is that little thing about everyone loving to play Brainstorm because like half the players play U decks. You'd lose a lot of people to a Brainstorm ban.

Now assume you as a storm player do not have access to Brainstorm either. Who is the bigger loser here: the combo player or the blue player?

[Tao]

I have no idea why there is such an uproar about Sneak and Tell. We have actual statistics on the numbers and in no way the deck is dominant. The problem is Brainstorm so ffs stop talking about banning another card that could be fixed by simply banning Brainstorm. Look at the numbers over the last months (and years):

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/mostplayedcards.php

There is an extreme tendency to Brainstorm decks. Brainstorm was the most played card in every single month since the Misstep ban and top3 with Force of Will/Wasteland/Misstep since there are statistics. Even when Survival was on its absolute hype it was doubled by Brainstorm in numbers (despite not playing Brainstorm and getting banned).
With the exception of Green Sun's Zenith which was floating between 10 and 20 of most played cards of the format for the last months no cards exist among the top20 that are not mostly played in heavy blue decks that also play Brainstorm (Bolt and Goyf are both from Delver, Surgical is colorless, Swords is not only Maverick but also Stoneblade). In this month's (too small yet) statistics there is not a single card among the top20 that is not played in Brainstorm decks.

You have a convincing theory on why Brainstorm is broken and bad for the format. You have numbers that heavily support this theory.

So either stop bitching about how other cards are unfair and enjoy participating in the format as it is or start discussing about banning Brainstorm. But don't get Show and Tell involved in this. The rat's tail of cards that won't be playable will just grow with time, banning SnT won't solve anything.

[Koby]

You have a convincing theory on why Brainstorm is broken and bad for the format. You have numbers that heavily support this theory.

I was agreeing with you up until this point. Brainstorm is not broken, nor is it bad for the format. Brainstorm is, and has been, utility. Its usage is showing exactly that - a glue that helps the format maintain its health by allowing a wide variety of strategies. Sadly, most of them are base blue which is the way Eternal formats tend towards. In spite of the formats heavy reliance on Brainstorm, the format has largely pushed fair and creature oriented strategies towards the upper echelons.

Are you saying that the card Brainstorm is holding back strategies that cannot compete in the format?

[Julian23]

You have a convincing theory on why Brainstorm is broken and bad for the format. You have numbers that heavily support this theory.

I was gonna agree with everything you said in that post. Up until you drew this conclusion. Everything you say can be applied to Fetchlands. To Duals. To anything that makes this format tick. Brainstorm ain't and has never been a problem. It's one of the more skillful cards to master. Sure, it's among the best utility spells in the whole format, very likely the best, feeding a vast variety of Combo and Control strategies.

Seeing large numbers of a utility spell just shows that it's a real good card. Large number of finishers/enablers are what's always been the main concern for this format. The only time utility spells get banned is when they do something absolutely broken, e.g. Vampiric Tutor.

Your crusade against Brainstorm reminds me of DrJones fighting Force of Will. Of course, I have to give you much more credit for actually trying to back up your claim.

[Tao]

I was agreeing with you up until this point. Brainstorm is not broken, nor is it bad for the format. Brainstorm is, and has been, utility. Its usage is showing exactly that - a glue that helps the format maintain its health by allowing a wide variety of strategies.

It is like in Vintage with Ponder and Brainstorm and in Modern with Ponder and Preordain. These cards are banned there for a reason. Look at it from a "win rate" approach. While technically Hive Mind+Pact or Exarch+ kills them it is the quality filtering that gives consistency in the first place and thus the needed win rate to dominate the format. In no way I am saying that Wizard's excessive banning in Modern was okay.
But Brainstorm is not only the filtering that enables decks like Show and Tell to perform consistently, but also sick virtual card advantage in the later stages of the game which makes it cross the line IMO.

Are you saying that the card Brainstorm is holding back strategies that cannot compete in the format?

I would think so. Hymn to Tourach decks would directly benefit because they can't hide their good stuff anymore and other decks (like Aggro Loam) indirectly because the other decks get weaker.

I was gonna agree with everything you said in that post. Up until you drew this conclusion. Everything you say can be applied to Fetchlands. To Duals. To anything that makes this format tick. Brainstorm ain't and has never been a problem. It's one of the more skillful cards to master. Sure, it's among the best utility spells in the whole format, very likely the best, feeding a vast variety of Combo and Control strategies.

My honest conviction is that Fetchlands should be banned instead of Brainstorm. I haven't mentioned it yet because it is too far out but now that you say it I can tell you...
I am 100% conviced by that and also think that it would make a much better format. Would make Brainstorm more fair and force people to make less greedy mana bases. Less shuffling and Top use too. But discussing that is pointless anyway so I go with the more realistic option and that is Brainstorm.

[Hanni]

The reason why most players play predominantly blue-based decks is not strictly because of Brainstorm. Brainstorm is a factor, but that's not the primary reason. Countermagic is typically more efficient than discard at dealing with non-interactive decks, such as combo. There are other factors that work in blue's flavor as well. People splash red just for Lightning Bolt or white just for Swords to Plowshares all the time... why doesn't anyone splash blue just for Brainstorm, if Brainstorm is so ubiquitous?

Brainstorm is without a doubt one of the best cards in the format, because it greatly increases a decks consistency at any given point for an efficient cost. However, that effect in and of itself isn't a broken effect; it's just really good. However, Wasteland is one of the best cards in the format, Force of Will is one of the best cards in the format, Swords to Plowshares is one of the best cards in the format, so on and so forth. Brainstorm isn't doing anything broken, and banning it isn't going to suddenly make blue any less dominant. What will happen, is alot of players will lose interest in the format. Not everyone obviously, but I know I for one would go find something else to spend my time on, like video games or Poker.

EDIT: I wanted to add this in...

There's a reason why I play Legacy. It's because I love playing with my older cards. I've been playing Magic off and on since I was like 11 years old, and I'm 26 now. I don't play Standard, I don't play Extended, I don't play Modern. I play Legacy. Banning the iconic Brainstorm, one of the most enjoyable spells to me, would kill my passion for the game. I'm already pissed that they banned Mystical Tutor with the excuse of a "gentlemans agreement," and I'm already disappointed that they banned Survival prematurely because the SCG crowd whined too hard. You ban Brainstorm too? I'm gone.

[Esper3k]

Can you imagine Belcher in a format with no Brainstorm to dig for FoW?

[ESG]

For the sake of argument, why is it OK that Griselbrand is legal in this format and Yawgmoth's Bargain isn't? Both cards offer instant-speed card draw, but creatures are easier to cheat into play than enchantments, and Yawgmoth's Bargain doesn't gain you back life or have the ability to win the game on its own.

[Hanni]

In all fairness, it's easier to chain rituals into Bargain in a Tendrils Storm shell, but I agree that Bargain seems safe to unban. I actually suggested that quite a while back. It costs more mana than Ad Nauseam, and while it may draw more cards and reduce some design constraints, it's also easier to answer pre-emptively with Pithing Needle, a card that every deck has access to, and Needle is extremely easy to cast at 1 colorless mana.

[Gheizen64]

For the sake of argument, why is it OK that Griselbrand is legal in this format and Yawgmoth's Bargain isn't? Both cards offer instant-speed card draw, but creatures are easier to cheat into play than enchantments, and Yawgmoth's Bargain doesn't gain you back life or have the ability to win the game on its own.

Bargain can realistically be hardcasted, but i agree, Grisel is usually a slightly more playable card and Bargain wouldn't break the format.

[lochlan]

It is like in Vintage with Ponder and Brainstorm

It is nothing like in Vintage with Ponder and Brainstorm. In Vintage you get to cantrip into Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, Tinker, etc. Card selection spells are quite a bit better when they let you access the most powerful cards ever printed.

[edgarps22]

I don't know what you guys are smoking on Bargain, that shit is by FAR worse than Grisel. Easier to cast, can be Show and Tell'd, and allows for chaining multiple Tendrils in a turn to win. It adds so much consistency to a Tendril based combo it is not even close to funny, if Grisel were cheaper I would run him in a Tendrils shell. Bargain is not safe, not by a long shot, and don't give me comparisons to Ad Nauseum, because that card can variance kill you more often than Bargain ever will. Also remember you run 4 Bargain, not 1 Ad Nauseum, you don't have to worry about life loss form high CMC with Bargain, its just 1 per card, therefor you do a lot less tutor chains to get your combo set up, you just have more cards that let you win the turn you cast them.

That being said, Show and Tell is fine, bring out your Tanglewires and get your MUD on. Seriously that deck, or archetype rather, has a lot of good answers and you can build it in a way to be consistent (I run a UR version with Thirst for Knowledge or Fact or Fiction for draw that runs Welders). There is, almost, always an answer to a deck on the rise. MUD has been a fun one for me, but you also can't stick with that one for long without being hated out really fast.

I see no cards that stick out as problematic, Brainstorm is fine, actually removing it would make me play FAR more combo. Maverick existing is indicative of a healthy format honestly. If a GW aggro deck has a decent matchup, maybe not always winning, but FAR from a blowout, against the main combo decks in the format, then things are fine and nothing is flying off the rails. I would like to see a resurgence in the power of black though, it has been severely lacking recently, that or criminally underplayed (Team America). Nothing needs to be banned, but I could go for a few unbans to shake things up. Earthcraft, Land Tax, Mystical Tutor (no it is not broken at the moment, it really isn't), and a few borderline cards like Mind's Desire, Recruiter, and Library of Alexandria. And yes I would take Mind's Desire over Bargain, MUCH harder to cast in a combo deck due to not being black or red.

It is nothing like in Vintage with Ponder and Brainstorm. In Vintage you get to cantrip into Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, Tinker, etc. Card selection spells are quite a bit better when they let you access the most powerful cards ever printed.

Agreed in Vintage the cards you draw into are severely more borked than the ones you draw into in Legacy. In Vintage you generally draw into cards that make you win now, in Legacy you draw into more consistent hands that can lead to a win, or into more of your dead cards, which we have a lot more of in this format. Brainstorm hiding away a Show and Tell that you can't win with for 3 turns due to lacking something does not compare to hiding Yawgmoth's Will, or drawing into Will.

[Esper3k]

The difference between 4BB vs 4BBBB is huge. While Griselbrand is a win condition on his own, creatures are also significantly easier to deal with than enchantments. Having to pay life in 7 life chunks is also a pretty large difference.

Finally, decks that play Yawgmoth's Bargain don't usually win through the attack step.

[thefringthing]

Show and Tell is going to have to go eventually. Maybe Griselbrand is what does it, maybe not. Admittedly, it's hard to imagine what could be better than Emrakul and Griselbrand.

[Dark Ritual]

There are vast differences between bargain and griselbrand, I would love to get out a bargain, draw a few cards, play and crack lion's eye diamond, then draw more cards with 3 of any color floating. The fizzle rate would be astonishingly low if you resolved a bargain at a healthy life total, seeing as how such a deck would run multiple tendrils to facilitate drawing more cards with bargain into a win. I know I would love to mini tendrils to be able to draw 10 more cards, as there's a word for that. Broken.

Bargain isn't safe while show and tell is legal either. You could maybe even run a hybridized combo deck, split between show and telling fatties into play or cheating in one of the most broken draw engines in the game in the form of bargain.

Also, 4BB is very very different in comparison to 4BBBB. One card is actually hardcastable, while the other card is very hard to hardcast in comparison. 8 mana spells rarely make a splash in legacy, and if they do they are practically required to be cheated into play via reanimation spells or show and tell or natural order.

Combo can easily function without brainstorm, I know I would pick up belcher/SI straight away upon brainstorm getting the axe as the blue decks couldn't dig as effectively for FoW so they are required to have it in their opener versus being able to cantrip into it with brainstorm in response to a belcher or draw 4 or something gamebreaking. Banning brainstorm is not the answer, banning brainstorm would cause a slippery slope with the banned list getting new additions like lion's eye diamond, dark ritual, etc. etc. that would rise to the top of the new format. And no one likes lots of cards getting added to the banlist. Also people forget that if brainstorm is axed droves of people would quit playing legacy due to their favorite card being disallowed from tournament play. If wizards wanted to kill legacy, the first thing they would do would be to ban brainstorm. Seeing as how wizards hasn't banned brainstorm, I doubt they will in the near future. Aaron Forsythe also stated that brainstorm isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and he knew miracles and griselbrand were just around the corner as well and he still said it. Brainstorm is just a great utility card, and utility cards aren't typically banworthy unless they completely dominate a given format like demonic tutor, if legal, would dominate legacy but at its core it is a utility card because it itself doesn't do anything except fetch another card.

Also, I love how people all scream for the banning of some combo enabler after one tournament. What about canadian thresh and maverick? Both of those decks have been winning for months, yet next to no one is calling for a ban on delver of secrets or green sun's zenith or any of those decks' pieces. If a combo enabler such as show and tell wins a major tournament and is required to be banned next B&R list update, the banlist would be getting some new addition(s) every 3 months. And where to draw the line? Should we ban every combo card all the way down to food chain? I hope not. I don't want legacy to turn into modern, where they ban anything and everything good in that format.

Also of note, a deck winning a given tournament doesn't necessarily mean that said deck is any good. Hypothetically, what if that belcher player with the 15 island sideboard won the tournament? That wouldn't mean anything, as belcher is a pretty terrible deck, especially when its sideboard consists of 15 islands/it has no sideboard to speak of. There have been one hit wonders in legacy where a deck wins tournament X then proceeds to do nothing ever again. Like Welder MUD when it first surfaced, the deck was piloted by that Bombholt character and the deck proceeded to do nothing afterwards in terms of top 8 appearances as the deck was and still is inconsistent as hell.

Overall I'm just in the ban nothing camp, except perhaps delver of secrets. And I won't deny that banning fetchlands would make legacy a lot more interesting in terms of playskill but I doubt WotC is going to ban fetchlands anytime soon if ever as people would be pissed if they couldn't play their $45 dollar polluted deltas tomorrow or flooded strand or any fetchlands for that matter. It would be interesting to see what legacy would look like after such a banning but I doubt it would be better than the current format we have right now.

Also, brainstorm is leagues better in vintage when you're drawing the most powerful cards in the game a.k.a. moxen, lotus, a. call, tinker, yawgmoth's will, etc. etc. and allowing decks to run 4 brainstorm and 4 ponder allowed vintage decks far too much consistency. I know that 4 gush when combined with 4 merchant scroll and 4 brainstorm formed a ridiculously powerful deck that was pretty much the de facto best deck in 2008 before WotC restricted ponder, brainstorm, merchant scroll, and gush in one fell swoop that also killed vintage in america as vintage players, like legacy players, like to run with 4 brainstorm in their deck.

[Star|Scream]

I find it so weird how on one hand people like Hanni say that you should adapt to beat SNT/GB and complain that people are "whining" because they can't continue to play their favorite cards, but then threaten to quit if the DCI were to ban brainstorm, specifically because they play legacy to play with their favorite cards. o.O?

[Hanni]

I find it so weird how on one hand people like Hanni say that you should adapt to beat SNT/GB and complain that people are "whining" because they can't continue to play their favorite cards, but then threaten to quit if the DCI were to ban brainstorm, specifically because they play legacy to play with their favorite cards. o.O?

Because banning cards is a serious issue. Once a card gets thrown on the banlist, it's probably never coming off. You will never be allowed to play with that card again. Why in the hell am I playing an Eternal format if I can't play with old cards? In cases like Flash back in 2007, it was understandable. Mental Misstep was understandable, because it was fairly format warping when every single deck in the format was forced to run it as a 4-of. But Mystical Tutor, because of a gentlemans agreement? Survival, because of SCG whiners? Come on man. I draw the line there. If a card like Brainstorm gets banned, I have no incentive to stick around in a format where unbroken stuff keeps getting banned. I want to see cards come off the banned list, not get put onto it.

There's a big difference between adapting to strong strategies like Show and Tell instead of whining about it, and wanting to quit after a string of bad judgement calls on DCI's part regarding bannings. Banning stuff is a slippery slope; if the gentleman's agreement works for Mystical Tutor, there's a whole shitload of cards that could easily fall into that same category. Banning Brainstorm is where I draw the line... I will go indulge in one of my other hobbies.