Something little different from the Leyline vs Cage Discussion:
Tommorow I'm going to my second tournament I participate with Dredge and I can't settle for my Sideboard.
There're going to be about 40-50 persons, the Meta consists off (at least the last few times) a lot of Canadian & UW-Control, wether Blade Control or Counterbalance (Probably a lot of Miracle-Control now), also a good portion of Maverick & RU-Delver.
They will be prepared for Dredge, last time there were 3 Dredge-Players and additional 2-3 Reanimators.
My Maindeck looks at the moment like this:
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichoird
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Putrid Imp
3 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
Typical Flayer List, but with 2 Imps instead of the 9th and 10th Gold-Lands. I'm playing with Flayer mostly because I like the Combo-Kill as a second approach, but also because I hate loosing vs Ensnaring Bridge, Moat, Elephant Grass etc (there is/are usually 1-2 Enchantress).
I'm not quite sure on the Imps vs Lands, but so far I never had any problems, sometimes I even got flooded..
For my Sideboard I'm thorn, I want to 2 more Goldlands, complete the playsets of Ichorids, Therapies and Imps. I need some graveyard-hate (probably Leyline), something against Leylines, 3 Natures Claim & 1 Chain of Vapor? Maybe 1 Ancient Grudge? Also I want to try Memory's Journey & 2 Ashen Ghouls versus Extractions. Oh and of course Firestorms and Iona..
Right now I'm thinking of this:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Ichorid
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Natures Claim
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Tarnished Citadel
// Or maybe 1 Citadel, 1 Paradise?
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Memory's Journey
1 Ancient Grudge
But maybe I dont need the Leylines that much, they'd come in in the mirror and vs Reanimator, and I had to mulligan for it, which I kinda hate.. 2 (3?) Memory's Journey could buy me enough time vs Reanimator? In this case I could remove the 4 Leylines, add 2 or 3 Journeys, remove the Ichorid and add 2 Ashen Ghouls?
I would strongly suggest that you reconsider taking out Gold Lands in favor of Putrid Imps. As much as Dredge is one of the decks that has minimal dependence on lands, its main dependency is still hinged on lands - more importantly, Gold Lands.Originally Posted by Holly
To be honest, I don't really want to take out the Putrid Imps either, but if I were to choose between the two, I'd prefer to use the cards that most of my other cards depend on.
I hope that helps.
Kind Regards,
jares
I had a doubt about building (yeah, the basis), when calculating the chances of having Land+Draw+Discard+Dredger:
As discard, is easy to consider Pimp, Tribe, Looting and Study (discards for turn 1).
LED works with Looting and Coliseum.
Breakthrough can be considered, since it eliminates the draw spells?
And Cabal Therapy, do you use it as discard outlet turn 1?
Short tourney report.
I played the Quadlaser with the new SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Ashen Ghoul
1 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Tarnished Citadel
First of all, i drunk too much last night and only got 2h sleep.
Game 1 against Goblins:
R1: Turn 3 kill with enough Zombies after dredging through my deck.
R2: He had Tormod's Crypt i had Nature's Claim, but he was faster and won.
R3: He took mulligans into three cards and he had a Bojuka Bog after my Breakthrough without any Moebas to create Zombies..
0-1
Game 2 against Affinity:
R1: Turn 3 kill with enough Zombies after dredging through my deck.
R2: I kept a bad hand, due to mulligan to five and he killed me with double Arcbound Ravager and Cranial Plating.
R3: He played Ancient Tomb and played Springleef Drum, Ornithopter and Grafdigger's Cage, i played Nature's Claim end of turn and won with Zombies and multiple therapies.
1-1
Game 3 against BUG Control:
R1: Dredged some cards and killed him with Zombies + Ichorids.
R2: He extracted Golgari Grave-Troll, Stinkweed Imp, Ichorid and he won with Jace + Wasteland that i couldn't return Ashen Ghoul.
R3: He extracted Narcomoeba, Bridge from Below, Cabal Therapy and Ichorids but i killed him with Ashen Ghouls
2-1
Game 4 against Canadian:
R1: Lost against Double Mongoose, due to mulligan to five again ( i think i never had a hand which i kept without mulligan..)
R2: I won, because he didn't find hate and no instants or sorceries for his double delver.
R3: Again no hate and i kept a hand with multiple studies and i won.
3-1
I was 7th and i had the chance to ID me into Top 8, but i wanted a price, so i played this.
Game 5 against Sneak Attack:
R1: I therapied his win options and won with multiple zombies.
R2: He kept after mulligan to six and i play land into therapy naming surgical extraction. Double hit. He had four lands and i just won.
4-1
Was 2. out of 28 now
Top 8:
Mirror:
R1: I was a turn faster and we went in game 2.
R2: I kept a non-leyline, non-nature's claim hand, because i had three lands, two lootings, a putrid imp. I thought, i will find a Nature's claim.
R3: Mulled to five with Leyline, but i had nothing to win this and he had land, claim, leyline, looting.
Ashen Ghouls -> Really nice to have!
K1w1
Last edited by K1w1; 06-10-2012 at 04:24 PM.
My colors are... ZONK!
You haven't any colors. You play Dredge.
You love games, which are unfair. You hate Reanimator & NicFit.
At good days, you destroy everything. At bad days,
you draw Narcomoebas. But the most important thing:
Everybody hates you!
LED can also be used as a discard outlet in response to a draw spell.
Breakthrough can only reliably function as a discard outlet (assuming that you would want to keep another card in hand) when X > 0.
As for Cabal Therapy, I wouldn't really want to use it as a discard outlet unless I'm desperate.
In other words, in terms of what you would want to consider for the slots for discard outlets, Putrid Imp, Tireless Tribe, Careful Study, and Faithless Looting are pretty much it; LED is probably next in line.
I hope that helps.
Cheers,
jares
A few inquiries:
- What is the minimum number of Ashen Ghouls that you would suggest?
- How many lands do you add to the deck when siding-in Ashen Ghouls,
if any?- What do you usually side out when siding-in Ashen Ghouls++?
Cheers,
jares
1) 3
2) 3
3) 4 LED + 1 Breakthrough +1 Ichorid
K1w1
My colors are... ZONK!
You haven't any colors. You play Dredge.
You love games, which are unfair. You hate Reanimator & NicFit.
At good days, you destroy everything. At bad days,
you draw Narcomoebas. But the most important thing:
Everybody hates you!
Short report if anyone is interested:
We were 52 players.
At least:
4x Dredge
5x Enchantress (!)
4x Sneak Show
4x Miracle-Stuff (UW)
..wow..
I played the list I posted above, without the Imps, therefore Goldland Nr. 9 and 10 and..well more about it below.
Anyway:
Match 1 vs Scepter-Chant:
Game 1: My dredges sucked and he stabilizes at 3 life 1 Round before I would have killed him with Scepter + Chant.
Game 2: I'm too fast.
Game 3: Like Game 2 but even faster !
Match 2 vs Stoneblade
Game 1: He's dead on my 2. turn.
Game 2: I made a huge mistake, running frontal into Relic of Progentius and lose, which I deserved.
Game 3: He topdecks 1 of his 2 Relics before I could have killed him (all Bridges, 3 Ichorids..but no Narcomoeba =/ ). I cant recover and got beaten down by an Geist.
Match 3 vs Enchantress
Game 1: I'm to fast, hes dead on turn 3, the wheel couldn't help him anymore since my graveyard was allready full.
Game 2: He starts with an Tutor but not for Wheel of Sun and Moon instead for the Green enchantment "cards in graveyard can't be the target of spells" Oo. I dont know why and asked him after I killed him next round, well he didnt knew either.
Match 4 vs Aggro-Loam
Game 1: He starts.. I kept a really greed hand but thought I could try it.. 2 Looting, 2 LED, 1 Breakthrough, 2 Dredger, I knew what he was playing and since he didnt do anything I waited for my second turn in which I drew a Land. Probably I should have started in my 1. turn.
Game 2: First turn Ooze and when I managed to drop 2 Trolls in my Graveyard (he only had 1 green source and was tapped out) he extracted them =/.
Game 3: I was to fast.
Match 5 vs Dredge
Game 1 he starts, in his second turn he had 1 Land & 1 Narcomoeba in play, 3 Bridges, 1 Dread Return, 1 Therapy and some creatures (including Troll) in his graveyard but passed.
I, who started with t1 Therapy, hardcasted my Thug and removed all his bridges. In my opinion he made a mistake with not casting the Therapy for at least 3 Zombies, he knew what I was playing so..
Anyway, he couldn't recover and was to slow.
Game 2: He mulls to 5, I start with Leyline, he does nothing.
Match 6 vs Canadian (a friend of mine)
We're both 4:1 at the moment, but I was downpaired twice, so I scooped and we split the price (he made the 4th place).
Back to 2 Lands vs Imps.
Everytime I drew them I wished for an Putrid Imp instead, maybe I was just unlucky, but often I had at the end of the game 2-3 Lands in play and more in hand (or discarded). In one game I even hardcasted 2 Ichorids !
Therefore I really liked my Sideboard, consisting off:
4x Leyline
2x Ashen Ghoul
2x Memory's Journey
1x Iona
3x Nature's Claim
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Cabal Therapy
Last edited by Holly; 06-09-2012 at 06:17 PM.
Wouldn't 1-2 Ashen Ghouls be sufficient?
Kind Regards,
jares
Nice Holly.
@ jares: The thing is, you play the Ashen Ghouls in the 2x Memory's Journey and 1x Grudge slots. If you just play 1-2 Ashen Ghouls you still lose to Swords to Plowshares. I think 3 is the right number even if you can't return all of them in one turn. In addition, they are black for Ichorids and if they don't have any hate, just imagine you have 3-5 3/1er in one turn.
I'm at a GPT again tomorrow. If i play X-0, X-1 or X-2 + Top 8 i will present you my results.
K1w1
My colors are... ZONK!
You haven't any colors. You play Dredge.
You love games, which are unfair. You hate Reanimator & NicFit.
At good days, you destroy everything. At bad days,
you draw Narcomoebas. But the most important thing:
Everybody hates you!
1 is worthless unless you're varying your creatures, i.e. playing it in addition to Nether Shadow, I've been happy with 2 myself altho' I could see playing 3 if you're willing to SB out the 4th Ichorid.
As an aside, does any one SB out Faithless Looting(s) whenever they SB out Lion's Eye Diamond vs Tormod's Crypt? I'm honestly starting to think that being able to reliably cast your draw spell is more important than running into a Tormod's Crypt, and Faithless Looting is pretty unreliable when you're anywhere from 2 to 4 mana sources down after SBing out LED for a couple of lands and whatever else you choose to bring in.
Thanks and good luck K1W1, looking forwards to your results ;)
Quadlaser with the new Sideboard or any changes for tomorrow?
Quadlaser with the Ashen Ghoul board.
Maybe -1 Tarnished Citadel +1 Undiscovered Paradise.
My colors are... ZONK!
You haven't any colors. You play Dredge.
You love games, which are unfair. You hate Reanimator & NicFit.
At good days, you destroy everything. At bad days,
you draw Narcomoebas. But the most important thing:
Everybody hates you!
I suppose it depends.
I have been running two Ashen Ghouls in my sideboard, but I'm also not running the Quad list. So far it has been working pretty well for me.
In the interest of saving sideboard space, I think that 2x Ashen Ghouls would be sufficient, given also that there's little benefit in having multiples of it in the graveyard when you only usually have one land to play with (of course, we can always bring one into play one at a time). I'll have to test that myself though.
Cheers,
jares
Let's talk sideboard. I've noticed more people have been dropping firestorm and I'm wondering what gives?
The other question, how does antihate beat permanent hate with counter backup? Something as simple as cage + daze shuts down claims/chains for the duration it seems unless we top deck into another antihate before they find more counters, not likely. If this is common then would these slots be better off as proactive cards or at least something more like shattering spree?
The format is shifting and to be honest cards like Firestorm (while great on paper), really don't solve any issues post-board. Sure, it kills Ooze and other associated pain in the asses, but really - those cards shouldn't matter and the deck can already race every other aggro deck in existence. It really only shines against Elves and even then I find myself rarely boarding it in. I might take them out on a trial basis.
If an opponent has conditional counter-magic to protect his or her permanent-based hate, then that really sucks for us. The best we can hope for is to try and kill it as quickly and discreetly as possible. But honestly, if they have something to protect it with, then we've either already lost or they have the nuts (basically hate with protection) and we're in a deep hole.
Mulligan right, play tight, and do the best you can.
I realize Ashen Ghoul has 2 power more, but isn't it ofter just better to have Nether Shadow because it's free to get back?
Actually while typing this I kind of figured out for quadlazer builds that power is relevant I guess, but in the DR lists I think I'd prefer the shadow. Thoughts?
Pretty much yes, if the sole purpose of your creatures is fodder for Therapys & DR then yes Shadows are better. But you cant allways rely on DR specially not in game 2 or 3 (in which you would bring the Ghould/Shadows) and in grindier games you want to deal damage with your creatures so the extra 2 power comes in handy.
Mostly you side your extra creatures in to diverse your threats versus Extraction, which is often used by controll decks (in conjunction with Snapcaster), these games tend to be grindier anyway.
Oh and since you want to diverse your threats you probably side out 1 Ichorid, maybe even 2 (if you play 4 main) and you will miss the power loss.
So yesterday I went to a 38 man tournament in bloomington IL for a mox. I had some thoughts on some new ideas for the deck but I hadn't been play testing enough so I went with something I thought I was more comfortable with.
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 undiscovered paradise
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichoird
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
2 Dread Return
1 flame kin zelot
1 Gristlebane
sb
4 leyline of the void
3 firestorm
3 natures claim
2 ancient grudge
1 elesh norn
1 iona
1 ichorid
I am sorry guys but I was way to tired to write down notes to make a decent report and I didn't write down any of my opponents names but I will try my best to recall the evening.
game 1 vs old school high tide
He wins the die roll and I get a mediocre hand. He plays a island and I instantly think high tide so I have a two turn clock. Turn 3 I play cabal naming high tide he lets it ride and I proceed to kill him. Game 2 was even worse for him as he kept a bad hand imo I cabaled him turn for a high tide getting it and then passed. He plays land pass I do my thing and then cabal again he responds with casting cunning wish for mindbreak trap and I name the trap and kill him.
1-0
Round two I won the die roll and played land faithless looting drawling me a led. I play the led and pass. He casts study and drops elesh and I wanna say blazing archon and passes. I dredge play coliseum led dredge my 5 off loot and coliseum and win. He mentions how if I didn't win that turn he would have won and I was like you don't say. I side in the leylines and one ichorid. My hand game 2 was iffy but it had leyline land and a drawl spell so I thought eh I can slow him down a bit. He keeps as do I and he plays misty rainforest I then say turn 0 and drop leyline and his expression is priceless. He counters my drawl and then we proceed to do the drawl go game. Hes casting ponder brainstorm but finding nothing. I'm passing like a champ and casting some drawl spells that get countered. I get two drawl spells in a row and he lets one resolve and I proceed to win.
2-0
Round 3 and I am feeling it my next round opponent complains on how dredge isn't a real magic deck trys to convince me about it and I tell him a story and he doesn't say another word. Basicly I was hard up for money like we all are and sold most of my collection. I do a snap keep and my hand is saucy and I tell him that. He mulls to 4 and keeps. I play land led loot then pass. Next turn I play coliseum and play another looting in my hand and pass. He beats me down with a delver and passes. I drawl and activate the coliseum and then proceed to loot again with led finding a stink. He beats my face in some more and I don't dredge into anything. More beats and I die quick. So I decide hes on surgical and bring in another ichorid and a elesh norn. Game 2 I dont recall but I won and then the epic game three happened. He mulls to 4 and I keep a nice 7. I dredge some he casts surgical on bridge. I dredge some more and he casts surgical on narcomoeba. I sigh and let it ride. He then casts a delver and I dredge trying to find my ichorids. We go to time and I have three in the yard. He stifles one during my upkeep and I bring in the two swing and pass. He swings with delver and passes. I dread return Gristle and pass. He doesn't see an out and folds it.
3-0
Going into 4th round I play a guy I know from town and there's only three undefeated players. We play and I know hes playing nic fit. I win game 1 and loose games 2 and 3. He had wheel of sun and moon game 2 which I destroyed and he played another hate card in nil spellbomb. Game 3 He plays nil first turn and then gets down an ooze and it's all said and done :(
3-1
So round 5 begins and I have a feeling after doing great in the first rounds this is where I shit and not make top. He wins the die and counters most of my spells and plays stoneforge followed up by a battleskull and a jittie. I then win game 2 and proceed to win game 3 with a iffy starting hand. I hand land double troll cabal and 4 other cards. I cabled myself on my turn and he lets it ride. I name the troll and he laughs. He doesn't play anything relevant and I get there.
4-1
So now the pressures off or so it seems and I ask my next round opponent if he wants to id He says yes and my record is good enough to get me into top 8.
4-1-1
top8 I face GW maverick and loose both games. Are first game was close but I didn't get there and then are second game he blew me out of the water with ooze and bog.
I dunno how I feel to come so long but not get there but my friend tries to cheer me up and says at least I got to top 8. I get 8 packs and we call it a day. I met some cool cats in bloomington and I saw 4 other dredge decks that day. If I had to do it all over I don't think I would change anything but maybe the side. The main deck was so insane all day for me and a Gristle bane hitting the table always meant a gg.
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