All B/R update speculation.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

There's... there's eight chairs there. I think there are more than eight legacy decks. If you and seven friends had every card in Legacy and were able to build every deck, you still couldn't replicate an actual legacy tournament environment. What makes you think you're qualified to decide what gets banned or unbanned?

You can replicate a gauntlet with two people. You can't tell me you only do testing at tournaments. If you do that explains a lot about where you people get your frustration from. It isn't Brainstorm it's lack of testing. Also, it's not like that is the only place I play Legacy at but we do have a large number of hardcore legacy players from a town of under 5,000.

[Tammit67]

To some extent tutors as well. GSZ represents a cross section of your deck. Sylvan Library can help, as can the deck thinning of fetches and knights as the game goes long. But none are as cheap and efficient as brainstorm.

Brainstorm isn't a guarantee though. it's similar (albeit more powerful) than having gitaxian probe in your hand. it makes mulliganing more awkward because you don't know if you will hit that 2nd land. Sure it lets you keep looser hands on the hopes of getting there, but without constructing the deck with this in mind, you won't and just lose.

Cheap and efficient is what this format is. That is why we play this format, because it is powerful and we get to play our powerful spells quickly.

You can't ask for a card to be removed from the pool for being cheap and effective, as every viable card these days is undercosted for its effect. You have to demonstrate (broken levels of)dominance, which I am not convinced of yet especially the wax and wane mentality of deck choices at SCG events. However long ago we were full on Maverick, and soon the ebb and flow of what is in vogue will shift away from what it currerntly is. Give it time

[dontbiteitholmes]

Assuming you are somehow correct at least we'd see an end to supply issues, prices would fall and make a great format accessible to more people. Probably people who are sick of the stalest least interactive format of all Standard. Where people sit around and ramp things onto the board and have no interaction on the stack at all. Oh wait ... that's the format you are going to run to for refuge. That makes a ton of sense. I also love how you would 'buy a deck' ... since the thought of actually making one hasn't crossed your brain. Which dovetails into why you cling to Brainstorm like a dog on a bone, you just can't picture a deck without it because you just haven't played much magic.

It's not the 1000s of people who own a playset of duals who are the problem, it's the 100s of people who own 100s of dual lands. Apparently these geniuses refer to this as an "investment" and fail to understand that a good 10-20% of the demand for dual lands is because of like minded individuals. Apparently these "investors" fail to understand that their hoarding only hastens the demise of Legacy and that when SCG stops supporting sanctioned Legacy, and WotC announces no more Legacy GPs because of supply issues, and 99.99% of local events allow proxies because of supply issues, that is going to cause probably 50% of dual land owners to sell them off (since they only bought them to play Legacy and now they don't need them to play Legacy), and that is not going to cause the price of dual lands to rise (and they will probably stay flat for a really long time after that, they are not even close to as rare as power and there will be a huge play stock getting sold).

Anyways I digress.

Exactly. You are building 56 card decks right now because there is no compelling reason, besides a chalice on 1 not to play 4 x Brainstorm. It doesn't take a savant deck builder to realize that.

There are reasons to not play blue, just far less right now. As S&T morphs into Reanimate expect that to change. Back when Merfolk was the DTB there was less reason to play any other blue deck (and Merfolk rarely ran BS). When Maverick was smashing everyone there was less reason to play blue. Ebb and flow, right now blue is at a peak but it will pass.

Sure, but it's clearly so far and away doing that job that the aggro deck, the combo deck, and the control deck all fucking play it. You know what else reduces variance? Ancestral Recall. Of course you've never played vintage so your perspective is a bit skewed.

You know what else decreases variance? Green Sun's Zenith, StoneForge Mystic, Burning Wish, and Infernal/Grim Tutor. That is why we are not Modern. We get to play with good cards that do powerful things instead of relying on top decks. Blue has the most powerful tool to reduce variance right now, but other colors are slowly catching up to blue's power level.

[nedleeds]

You can replicate a gauntlet with two people. You can't tell me you only do testing at tournaments. If you do that explains a lot about where you people get your frustration from. It isn't Brainstorm it's lack of testing.

You haven't even tried to refute the core argument that Brainstorm belongs on the banned list given what's currently on there.

You've countered with:

- I'd quit
- Skill intensive
- My playgroup is awesome
- I have a C.S. degree
- You all suck and don't test

[pants]

You can replicate a gauntlet with two people. You can't tell me you only do testing at tournaments. If you do that explains a lot about where you people get your frustration from. It isn't Brainstorm it's lack of testing.

No, I have the privilege of a vibrant local legacy scene. There's a tournament every Wednesday, and everyone's pretty up-to-date on whatever just won last weekend. There aren't any poor people there either, so we have a wide variety of decks. If you think a gauntlet is a good way of testing, then I'm sorry for you.

[Einherjer]

Ehm kids, couldn't you settle these things via PM?

[rxavage]

People are still mad goblin's sucks?

[TooCloseToTheSun]

No, I have the privilege of a vibrant local legacy scene. There's a tournament every Wednesday, and everyone's pretty up-to-date on whatever just won last weekend. There aren't any poor people there either, so we have a wide variety of decks. If you think a gauntlet is a good way of testing, then I'm sorry for you.

How the fuck do you test for a big tournament, if not with a gauntlet?

[Einherjer]

People are still mad goblin's sucks?

No they are still mad they can't play with Gluttonous Zombie!!







*cookie if you didn't look that card up*

[nedleeds]

You can't ask for a card to be removed from the pool for being cheap and effective, as every viable card these days is undercosted for its effect. You have to demonstrate (broken levels of)dominance, which I am not convinced of yet especially the wax and wane mentality of deck choices at SCG events. However long ago we were full on Maverick, and soon the ebb and flow of what is in vogue will shift away from what it currerntly is. Give it time

Brainstorm has been dominant for 5 years now. It's an enabler in dominant decks of all archtypes (aggro, combo, control). Maybe the tipping point is finally R&Ds ridiculous blue creatures of the last year (Delver, SCM), or the miracle mechanic (this I doubt).

Again. I'd propose some unbannings before banning Brainstorm but to say it isn't worthy given some of the reasons given for past bannings

- ubiquity
- limiting design space
- potential for abuse

is foolish.

[Snap_Keep]

QUUAAADDD POOSSSSTTT!!!!!!!! (oh... you deleted your 4 posts in a row... whatever)

Brainstorm keeps games reactive and fun. If you don't want powerful card drawing spells you should consider trying out Modern or T2, they have much more balanced colors/cards. Don't go on a crusade trying change a whole a format because you don't like Brainstorm

[TooCloseToTheSun]

You haven't even tried to refute the core argument that Brainstorm belongs on the banned list given what's currently on there.

You've countered with:

- I'd quit
- Skill intensive
- My playgroup is awesome
- I have a C.S. degree
- You all suck and don't test

What is the core argument for banning? Is it ubiquity at the last SCG event top 8, I got news for you there was one less FoW than there was Brainstorm, so we have to ban that also? Limiting design space? Uh there are decks that don't play brainstorm right. There are even blue decks that don't. Also, that's just a bullshit argument in general, if you don't want to play brainstorm don't play it. Potential for abuse? That's just just a cop out. There are a lot of cards that can be abused.

[pants]

How the fuck do you test for a big tournament, if not with a gauntlet?

Well, we get a couple people together, and talk about decks, and we play those decks, and we offer each other opinions, and we talk about the format. We don't pair up with each other and test our decks against every other deck in the format - we're smart enough to know that we don't need to test our enchantress match-up, and we're certainly smart enough to know every person doesn't play the same. You see, some people are better at playing certain decks than others, and it doesn't help your testing if you hand Bob a tendrils deck (while he isn't sorting baseball cards) to play against, because he isn't going to properly pilot it, making your "testing" worthless.

[nedleeds]

You know what else decreases variance? Green Sun's Zenith, StoneForge Mystic, Burning Wish, and Infernal/Grim Tutor. That is why we are not Modern. We get to play with good cards that do powerful things instead of relying on top decks. Blue has the most powerful tool to reduce variance right now, but other colors are slowly catching up to blue's power level.

I get what you are saying but you are reaching now. All of those have narrow targets, are sorcery speed and aren't anything close to Brainstorm.

I agree we play legacy and not modern because we want access to older more powerful cards, but again given what's on the ban list Brainstorm belongs right there.

Given some of the reasons we've been given for bannings in the explanations Brainstorm deserves to be banned.

[nedleeds]

QUUAAADDD POOSSSSTTT!!!!!!!! (oh... you deleted your 4 posts in a row... whatever)

Brainstorm keeps games reactive and fun. If you don't want powerful card drawing spells you should consider trying out Modern or T2, they have much more balanced colors/cards. Don't go on a crusade trying change a whole a format because you don't like Brainstorm

Mind Twist keeps games reactive and fun. If you don't want powerful discard spells you should consider taking a flying fuck at a rolling donut. Don't go on a crusade trying change a whole a format because you don't like Mind Twist.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Well, we get a couple people together, and talk about decks, and we play those decks, and we offer each other opinions, and we talk about the format. We don't pair up with each other and test our decks against every other deck in the format - we're smart enough to know that we don't need to test our enchantress match-up, and we're certainly smart enough to know every person doesn't play the same. You see, some people are better at playing certain decks than others, and it doesn't help your testing if you hand Bob a tendrils deck (while he isn't sorting baseball cards) to play against, because he isn't going to properly pilot it, making your "testing" worthless.

Oh, you just don't know what a gauntlet is.

[pants]

Oh, you just don't know what a gauntlet is.

Yeah, I suppose I don't know what your definition of gauntlet is. Can you define your terms in every subsequent post, please?

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Yeah, I suppose I don't know what your definition of gauntlet is. Can you define your terms in every subsequent post, please?

Sure, It's where you build up the decks you expect to see the most at an event, you know like the last SCG top 8 lists, dtb, and to a lesser extent, decks that seem to never go away (mostly affinity and burn.) Then you play each other until you feel comfortable with the match-up and figure out side-boarding plans. Then we get drunk.

[Snap_Keep]

Mind Twist keeps games reactive and fun. If you don't want powerful discard spells you should consider taking a flying fuck at a rolling donut. Don't go on a crusade trying change a whole a format because you don't like Mind Twist.

Ha... well, you didn't get what I said at all I guess, or you did, but didn't know how to respond so you thought you'd try trolling.

Mind Twist isn't reactive, it's proactive. Brainstorm is the biggest skill tester and one of best cards in the format for many reasons. It is fantastic in the hands of someone knowledgeable and mediocre to bad when someone mediocre uses it. This is how games should work, they should be skill dependant, no card is more skill dependant in this format then Brainstorm. If you want to take out our format's hardest to use card then I think you should be playing a different format with easier to use cards.

If you want to ban cards based on their appearance in T8s should we also be banning Fetches and Force of Will? What about dual lands?

[whienot]

The entire argument isn't about banning Brainstorm, but unbanning cards that are clearly below Brainstorm's power level.