Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Goblin Lackey
Standstill
Natural Order
That's because they all have government jobs and 6 weeks vacation. What's to complain about?Originally Posted by AEnesidem
At least then I wouldn't have to quit legacy, I could just move to Europe and be free of the whiners.
A founding member of Team Bluff the Lotus - Bringing the crazy from Bob's Baseball Dugout
Sensei's Divining Top and Doomsday would like to have a word with you.
EDIT:
Also, I watch a lot of games sometimes just cause I have so much time in between games playing SI, and I like to sit and watch the blue players. People whiff on their Brainstorms all the time without knowing it because it comes back to bite them in the ass much later in the game. Then again, if you play something like BUG Tempo which allows you to play discard and see the opponents hand, you have more information and its harder to whiff. Still, I don't think people have taken the time to consider the implications of a misplayed Brainstorm, and how often it happens. Its a subtle misplay most of the time, not blatant like 'ahhh shit, I flipped one too many on Ad Nauseam, looks like I lose, guy.'
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
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Expect me or die. I play SI.
Brainstorm surely is very powerful, but I would hate to see it banned. It makes the format more fun for me without putting one strategy (Either U-based Aggro Control or U-based Combo) over the top in my eyes. The power level of Brainstorm did not make for the 32/32 showing, the state of the format did. Brainstorm was always strong, and there have always been decks that abuse it very well. But there have been many times when anti-blue decks such as Maverick or Vial based decks (mainly Merfolk) were the main tier-1 strategy. The current format is RUG/SnT. RUG and most SnT variants (except for hypergenesis) play Brainstorm. The latest answer to this meta, Reanimate, also packs brainstorms. Besides, a card being so popular is not a reason to ban it as long as it it played by a wide variety of decks. While one does need to play fetchlands and at least 1-2 blue duals to enable Brainstorms it cannot be said that it's only played by a small variety of decks. The same goes for cards such as Wasteland. This argument is of lesser strength for Force of Will, but that card serves a different role in this format (keeping silly combo decks such as Belcher and SI in check). While Show and Tell is played in different decks it's actually only playable in one strategy; U-based combo.
Show and Tell is a card I can actually see getting banned. If it won't happen now it'll happen later as it'll only become stronger because of Wizards printing more silly overcosted permanents and that alone puts a card on the watchlist judging by what happened to Mystical (which was a correct ban for the wrong reasons) and Survival (which was a wrong ban imo, but can be understood).
It is also fairly hard to fight all the angles that Show and Tell has, which makes it a much more bannable card than Jizzlebrand or Sneaky Derp in my eyes.
I think the format can perfectly survive with Show and Tell in it until the next B&R update but I won't shed a tear if it does face the wrath of the banhammer.
Looking at the banlist for possible unbans I see many options, but I don't expect to them to unban too much any time soon. Cards I'd like to see are Black Vise, Earthcraft, Land Tax & Mind Twist and possibly some of the combo engines such as Memory Jar because I doubt they are that much stronger than Ad Nauseam or Time Spiral. Some other cards could come off but won't because of the cost (Library would be fine imo) or because they've been banned recently (Survival).
PS: Brainstorm definately does add to the amount of skill needed to play your deck optimally but it's not the hardest card to play (Top, Doomsday, Therapy and some dead cards such as FoF or Gifts come to mind) and the skill issue is slightly overused.
This doesn't look to be the case for wotc, just see MM.
Remember what happened to Vintage when Brainstorm got restricted? Killed the format.
Know what will happen if you ban Brainstorm in Legacy? You will kill the format.
Brainstorm is a fun card that isn't excessively powerful.
Why did I talk about it in past posts in this topic? Because discussion is fun.
But go ahead and cry out for Brainstorm to be banned. Have fun with that fallout.
If banning Brainstorm kills the format then the format sucked to begin with. Vintage died off because of the reserved list. If legacy dies it'll be because of the reserved list, not because of a U instant. SCG stopped the Power 9 series because legacy became the more profitable format.
Nope, thats the SCG format. Although I admit RUG is placing very high everywhere and I cant blame people jumping the grisel-wagon as it seems very fun deck to play.
For example Bazaar Moxen top8:
1 Maverick
3 Thresh
1 Sneak & Show
1 Blue Zoo
1 Esper Tempo
1 Doomsday
1 Blade Control
PTQ Ghent I played in last weekend had the following decks in t8:
2 UW Countertop (1 Miracle, 1 Thopter)
4 Thresh
1 NLT
1 Sneak & Show
Brainstorm everywhereHopefully people adapt their Maverick lists (Revoker/whatever else has been discussed lately) and we see some mavericks in top8s again.
That's 9 decks. 8 with Brainstorm.
Wow 8 for 8. It's hilarious that some people argue that the card isn't ban worthy. For those clinging to the Brainstorm-tit as the only reason you shuffle up a deck you better hope for some unbannings to shake things up.PTQ Ghent I played in last weekend had the following decks in t8:
2 UW Countertop (1 Miracle, 1 Thopter)
4 Thresh
1 NLT
1 Sneak & Show
Brainstorm everywhere
My bad, 2 Thresh instead of 3. Unless people count the Blue Zooish list as Thresh, in which case no blue zoo in that top8.
As for the Ban brainstorm debate, you are in the 21.50% minority and I happen agree with the 78.50%.
EDIT: Let me clarify that, roughly 80% of this legacy community agrees that brainstorm shouldnt be banned and I think we have some of the greatest legacy minds on these forums and I trust in their opinions.
The reason you are seeing brainstorm everywhere is because it is the best card of the 'current' best color. Show and Tell versus RUG is the format right now. I could see RUG losing some strength with the loss of brainstorm, but Show and Tell decks would hardly notice the loss of brainstorm.
If white was without question the best color, then swords to plowshares would be covering the top 8's. You know why? Because Swords to Plowshares is the best white card.
Same with mono black. Dark Ritual in a mono black deck is really close to a Black Lotus. In the right deck, Lion's Eye Diamond is a Black Lotus.
In fact, in the right deck Show and Tell is more powerful than Black Lotus. You see when Show and Tell was printed creatures were less powerful than spells. Hence you had Black Lotus restricted/banned while Show and Tell could only put permanents in play. Well flash forward 14 years(?) and now creatures are vastly more powerful than spells, and stupid powerful too.
Legacy is full of broken things. Brainstorm is no exception to this. It doesn't need to be banned though. It is on par with everything else crazy in the format.
With you argument of things being unbanned: you are right. Mind's Desire, Mind Twist, and Land Tax(probably time limits for this one) are outdated or the format has moved past them.
And over 80% of people thought that Temporal Mastery should be banned. That's actually higher than the number you appealed to and it's a more recent poll. Do you therefore agree it should be banned?
I see 40% voting yes and 40% voting no with 20% being neutral?
Citing that poll is ridiculous. There are two different "ban it" options and one option to abstain. Totally biased.
"I'm willing to imagine a TES where Past in Flames replaces Ill-Gotten Gains entirely, and we just don't play Diminishing Returns." - me, 29/09/2011
Founding member of Team Scrubbad: Legacy Legends
40% voted it should receive an emergency banning before it even entered the format. 40% voted that it should be banned, but not preemptively.
The sneak and show decks run 12 awkward cards they don't want in multiples. The deck runs 19 lands. Over a 8-10 round tourney good luck with that. Brainstorm enables that deck to top 8 with some consistency.
Right, but every non white deck wouldn't run Swords to Plowshares. The black ritual based combo deck wouldn't run swords. The combo deck wouldn't run STP. The aggro deck might not run it either because of the life gain.If white was without question the best color, then swords to plowshares would be covering the top 8's. You know why? Because Swords to Plowshares is the best white card.
The difference is every deck runs Brainstorm ... even the black ritual decks. Even the G/r aggro deck (Delver makes this even worse).
Now you are off in left field and saying strange things.In fact, in the right deck Show and Tell is more powerful than Black Lotus. You see when Show and Tell was printed creatures were less powerful than spells.
Yep. The broken things are mostly on the banned list. Solomoxenvaults, big blue, necro, drains, broken lands, windfall, etc.. Brainstorm is a better, more versatile, more 'broken', more degeneracy enabling card than several cards on the banned list now. Let's get those off of there. Let's shake up the format.Legacy is full of broken things. Brainstorm is no exception to this. It doesn't need to be banned though.
Earthcraft, Recruiter, etc.With you argument of things being unbanned: you are right. Mind's Desire, Mind Twist, and Land Tax(probably time limits for this one) are outdated or the format has moved past them.
Let's hope so. I hope they look at the list as a whole re-evaluate all the cards before moving to ban anything. Show and Tell or Brainstorm or Sneak Attack.
Anything they do unban will ultimately best be utilized along side.....Wait....for.....it.....
.......
Brainstorm.
Just a note about polls, especially internet forum polls:
They're generally horribly inaccurate since it's pretty easy to bias towards a particular answer due to the wording of answers/what choices you offer/etc. but also because you don't actually get the full opinion of the population you're polling, just the people who cared enough to vote on the topic.
Speculation will always continue on what's to ban next, but I wanna look at the current banned list and see what has the potential to come off -or- return to legacy, for that, I'll look at the banned list itself and make some notes:
First are the Ante cards, or cards that have absurd/outrageous requirements, like actual physical interactions, etc, these are the least likely candidates to ever be unbanned:
Ante:
1 Amulet of Quoz
2 Bronze Tablet
3 Contract from Below
4 Darkpact
5 Demonic Attorney
6 Jeweled Bird
7 Rebirth
8 Tempest Efreet
9 Timmerian Fiends
Physical interaction:
10 Chaos Orb
11 Falling Star
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The next least likely cards to ever come off the banned list, are also some of the most famous, and most expensive:
The power 9:
12 Ancestral Recall
13 Black Lotus
14 Mox Emerald
15 Mox Jet
16 Mox Pearl
17 Mox Ruby
18 Mox Sapphire
19 Time Walk
20 Timetwister
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Other unlikely candidates, are cards have been added to the banned list since the start of "modern type 1.5" / legacy, since Sept 2004, when type 1 & type 1.5, or "Vintage" & "Legacy" went from sharing what's "restricted" in vintage is "banned" in legacy, to their own banned/restricted lists independent of eachother. Any card that has been ADDED to the banned list since that time (Sept 2004), is very unlikely to be removed since it is more recent, etc.
Added to banned list since 2004:
21 Imperial Seal (Sept 2005)
22 Flash (June 2007)
23 Shahrazad (Sept 2007)
24 Time Vault (Sept 2008)
25 Mystical Tutor (June 2010)
26 Survival of the Fittest (Dec 2010)
27 Mental Misstep (Sept 2011)
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Of the remaining 34 cards, some are just as unlikely as the cards above, but other's just might be a "possibility":
28 Bazaar of Baghdad (unlikely)
29 Balance (? possibility ? ~One could say that all it really is, is a more powerful pox, the argument against it however, is that it's the ULTIMATE pox)
30 Black Vise (? possibility ? ~One could say it's not fast enough, & it's not broken enough without something to help keep cards in your opponents hands, like trinisphere/chalice of the void/land destruction/howling mine, etc. The argument against it, in the right deck build & setup, it's a lightning bolt every turn coming from not a creature but a harder to answer artifact, and it's a 1 mana investment)
31 Channel (unlikely)
32 Demonic Consultation (unlikely)
33 Demonic Tutor (unlikely)
34 Earthcraft (? possibility ? ~This is another card that has been debated in the past, it could turn the lesser played enchantress deck into a combo setup, go enchantress! the argument against it, is that it would make for another fast combo setup out there, possibly too fast or too easy to enable?)
35 Fastbond (? possibility ? ~What's the most broken thing you could get out of having all your lands in play, one could argue the more lands you play, the less spells you play, and you become weaker against counter magic opponents when they just wait to counter what's important, and just leave you with a few non basic lands with some tricks that the lands themselves provide, while the most broken lands are banned anyway from the format, the argument against it however, is that it's fastbond!)
36 Frantic Search (? possibility ? ~It's essentially just another careful study -at instant speed- that, while basically free if it resolves, has a 3 mana requirement. The argument against it, Reanimator, Solidarity, & High tide are definitely just some of the examples of where this one would be abused)
37 Goblin Recruiter (unlikely)
38 Gush (? possibility ? ~It does require 2 islands for the alternate casting cost, the argument against it, it's blue, its free, it's abuseable card advantage)
39 Hermit Druid (? possibility ?~He doesn't have haste, so not only is it counterable, it's killable, bounceable, etc, the argument against it however, is that once it uses it's ability, your deck will most likely be setup for it, and you will most likely win the game after that.)
40 Land Tax (? possibility ? ~This is one of the more debated ones, it is card advantage but more narrow, & not as absurd as most of the other cards on the banned list, the argument against it however, is that its still some good raw card advantage)
41 Library of Alexandria (unlikely)
42 Mana Crypt (unlikely)
43 Mana Drain (unlikely)
44 Mana Vault (unlikely)
45 Memory Jar (unlikely)
46 Mind Twist (? possibility ? ~One of the more debated ones, out of all the cards on the banned list, this is one of the weaker ones, there is even another version for just 1 more black mana & I didn't even know it existed until recently because noone ever uses it, the argument against it? with enough mana you can still, technically, turn 1 destroy an opponents hand, but you are probably using nearly your entire hand to do so in the process)
47 Mind's Desire (unlikely)
48 Mishra's Workshop (unlikely)
49 Necropotence (unlikely)
50 Oath of Druids (unlikely)
51 Skullclamp (unlikely)
52 Sol Ring (unlikely)
53 Strip Mine (? possibility ? ~The most abusive thing I can think of is crucible of worlds/Life from the loam lockdown, and most of the better tier legacy decks run ton's of non basic's already, the argument against it however is just that, strip mine into play every turn lockdown)
54 Tinker (unlikely)
55 Tolarian Academy (unlikely)
56 Vampiric Tutor (unlikely)
57 Worldgorger Dragon(unlikely)
58 Wheel of Fortune (unlikely)
59 Windfall (unlikely)
60 Yawgmoth's Bargain (unlikely)
61 Yawgmoth's Will (? possibility ? ~past in flames costs 1 more mana to activate, and only hits instants & sorceries, this card costs 1 less and can hit anything, but most of the stuff you'd want would likely be instants and sorceries in the first place. The argument against it, it's just too cheap overall & just too powerful once it resolves, out of all the "possibilities" for arguments that I can make, this card is one of the most least likely of all the possible unbans.)
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In either case, the format is what it is, and it's not likely much will come off the banned list, but for what it's worth, from perspectives that can be argued, for cards that just might get looked at every once in a while, I figured I'd go on the defensive for "some" of these cards, even of some of them listed as a "possibility" are really just as unlikely as the rest of the list, all I know for sure is, I don't expect much to come off the banned list, but with the format ever changing, some of the slower or more narrow cards, just might get lifted in the future >^,^<
~Note: Please don't freak on me about cards I listed as a possibility, I am just making arguments for & against the cards listed as such, I am aware that these cards are ALL on the banned list for a reason, so please don't think I could forget that.
Last edited by feline; 08-12-2012 at 06:04 PM. Reason: I'm picky, I almost always edit my posts after reading them even after half a dozen re-reads/skim overs>^,^<
Primary legacy deck High Tide primer
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