@Hokus: May I ask what list would you play, without LED's?Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth
I used to play Firestorm MD, but Faithless Looting seems too good, even without LED.
Maybe cut some Breakthrough?
Basicly my list from GP Amsterdam, with a few maindeck changes and totally different board.
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.ph...9&iddeck=51140
I would test -1 Ichorid, -1 Citadel, -1 Breakthrough-1 PImp +4 Looting at first.
Note that I didn't play LEDless Dredge since December or so. I don't test it anymore either. So the list may be suboptimal, but that's where I would start.
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
Ok, thanks a lot ^^
I really need to be pushing this deck again, everytime I do though its just memories of hate hate hate! Plus lately I've completed a few other decks and fell in love with them for a while.
I noticed recently that the top dredge finish at starcitygames, they ran 3 ichorid while only running 1 dread return and no maindeck DR targets, I'm currently toying with that, it's such a tight list and while ichorid isn't a game breaker, it does reanimate itself and keep swinging unless its Removed from game, I have been fine with no main deck DR target, but going from 2 to 1 Dread return before was something I wouldn't have considered, seeing it now though I am more leaning towards it
The other balance is between careful study / breakthrough / faithless looting / cephalid colliseum / putrid imp:
obviously, faithless looting is staying a 4 of, so is cephalid colliseum, and since more ichorids mean more ichorid food, ill keep the putrid imp's as well. So it comes down to careful study/breakthrough, and in a way, breakthrough is like a faithless looting w/ flashback (dredge 4 times total) that doesn't require the lion's eye diamond, where careful study is only half that, and if you don't want to dump too much to the graveyard, don't dredge all your draw's on the breakthrough, just do enough to put enough pressure on them, if the argument is against the speed of breakthrough. Also in the position of discarding your whole hand but wanting to keep a card or 2, and not being able to do that with a turn 1 breakthrough, then just do the other stuff turn 1 (since all the stuff you cast is probably 1 cmc or "free" anyhow) and just wait till the next turn, it all depends on specifics, now that ive typed out my thoughts though i think im going to have a breakthrough push -vs- a careful study push, i wish i could just run 4 / 4 of both though.
Last edited by feline; 08-12-2012 at 05:04 PM.
Primary legacy deck High Tide primer
Here's a tip to all of you: If you want to hit amazing hands all the time, don't ever cut any Faithless Looting, Cephalid Coliseum and Careful Study. Not even one. Ever. Cut PImp, cut BT, but don't mess with these 12.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
Exactly. I would rather play more than those 8 Studies but that isn't possible:(
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
This is what im learning. I say pimp belongs in the board, at least for now. Study spells, coliseum, LED and BT are all power cards. In comparison pimp is obviously the weakest link, more the definition of a SB card, a fallback to the primary plan of exploding on someones face game 1 in the absence of hate.Here's a tip to all of you: If you want to hit amazing hands all the time, don't ever cut any Faithless Looting, Cephalid Coliseum and Careful Study. Not even one. Ever. Cut PImp, cut BT, but don't mess with these 12.
From my recent experience a pimp in the opener game 1 doesnt make a hand any more keepable without more draw/discard spells anyway and after that hes usually just ichorid fodder.
+1
Are you kidding?PImp makes still the most consistent openers. Exspecially in the comboesque builds.
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
Axing Imp is a terrible idea. That's like playing three Force of Will with eleven Blue cards. Totally not worth it.
But in place of what? Not saying pimp is a bad card just where do I find room for it and all the more broken enablers? I am trying to find a build that I like and that functions well so I am interested in your LED list if you dont mind.Are you kidding?PImp makes still the most consistent openers. Exspecially in the comboesque builds.
I agree that PImp is a good card, and it's worth more than just "discard outlet". Being repeatable and usable to create zombies, attacking for 2 and pitching for our 3/1 isn't to be forgot. But in fact, discard outlet is the combo piece that usual dredge decks have the most. I can't blame hyper-comboish lists for cutting PImps. It's better than cutting CS anyways.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
Cutting Breakthrough, Faithless Looting or Careful Study is always wrong, and I'd say cutting Cabal Therapy is always wrong as well fwiw altho' it's less noticeable because it's only tangible when you're in race situations with Storm, Elves, Sneak Attack, Reanimator etc, so the only flexible slots in lists are usually the 12th Golgari Thug and the 4th Putrid Imp because they battle for the 9th and 10th golden lands and your SB space IMO.
The 3 Ichorid, 1 Dread Return win conditions are my favorite configuration, because it conserves a SB slot by MDing a Dread Return and 3 Ichorid is the sweet spot between having redundancy vs Swords to Plowshares and Tormod's Crypt while reducing the effectiveness of Surgical Extraction.
My LED build is the quad. It's in the OP of the primer.
SB: 3 Ashen Ghoul
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Chain of Vapor(will be Nature's Claim most likely)
4 Leyline otV
1 Ancient Grudge
The reason I don't have to cut stuff for PImp and the like is that I don't play fancy DR stuff. That's not for everyone,I imagine but works better than any other list so far for me.
I'd play 3 PImps, 3 Thugs 3 Ichorids if I were to play 2 DR and a target.
Edit: I don't really see a point in having more than 12 Lands total maindeck, if you were wondering how I fit all the cards in the MD:P
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
I completely agree. 12 lands is more then enough, at 13 I'm routinely able to play around daze/pierce. Maybe I'm lucky with my Sneak n Tell matches, but I always hit blind therapy on Force and play around Daze with ridiculous ease. This makes me want to move the one Paradise to the board (or cut it altogether) in favor of the 4th thug or a Darkblast. It seems kind of crazy, but I've been having issues with 11 dredgers a bit more often then I'd like. It's only ~10% of games or so, and usually completely random, but still.
Also, about the cuts: I play GB/FKZ currently and have tried a ton of variations, but always come back to 3pimp/3thug/3ichorid. This is pretty much set in stone for me unless I add the 12th dredger. I've also rid myself of Firestorm from the board, as I am not scared of Maverick at all. Leyline seems like the obvious shoe-in but I'm still kind of on the fence. The 2 Ghouls / Journey board plan has been FANTASTIC on the other hand, and will be sticking around for a while methinks. Here's what I've been testing for those that care
3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
1 Griselbrand
1 Flame-kin Zealot
2 Dread Return
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Undiscovered Paradise
SB:
4 Nature's Claim
2 Memory's Journey
2 Ashen Ghoul
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Leyline of the Void (used to be 3x Firestorm/1xDarkblast)
Note that by siding in cards like Ashen Ghoul, you really are running tight on mana. I'd recommend any Dredge player to have at least 14 lands between maindeck and sideboard.
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
Yeah, it's the main reason I haven't cut the 13th land. If I opt for 3x Firestorm over the Leyline's for Seattle I'll probably add the 14th in the extra slot if need be.
It really depends on what you're referring to as "enough".
At 12 lands (with only 8 Gold Lands), you have an 80.94% chance to get a land in your opening hand (7 cards), with only a 65.36% chance of getting a Gold Land. This might seem "enough" to some, but I doubt that these numbers could be categorized as "more than enough". Of course, there's also LED that also technically serves as a mana source, but it can't be counted-on to cast the majority of our spells.
Kind Regards,
jares
Oh no doubt. Statistically speaking, 12 is just shy of ideal, but I always seem to flood (3 lands in play) at 14. It happens more rarely at 13 but still enough for me to bring up dropping one. It's just a matter of variance as I seem to be experiencing far more issues with actually dredging then casting spells these days :P That said, I was merely agreeing with the Quadlazer style mana base being rock solid, and at least worth looking at in GB lists :)
Also, If I were to run 12 land, with none in the board, I would certainly advocate Nether Shadow in place of the Ashen Ghoul. Just as food for thought.
That is my exact main-board and sideboard...except I have the Firestorms and another Grudge in there. I'm still debating what to remove and put in their place, though.
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