Miracle Control

[Koby]

I'm a big fan of 3 Waste main, 1 Waste 1 Crucible Sideboard in similar UW/x control decks. However, I don't think it works here. It would almost serve better to not play any Wastelands and run a tighter mana base with more basics. Is Back to Basics a serious contender in some sideboards to serve the same effect and cutting off multiple 3c strategies at the same time.

[Einherjer]

I do not think that Back to Basics is a valid choice here. It works well in something like UW CounterThopter where you play like..3 nonbasics? Our Manabase plays way too many nonbasics. Most of us play 3 Fortress and 3-4 Tundra and 0-2 Splashduals, some tend to run 1 Utility-Land or something. This does not work with B2B here. Yes we could trim our Mainboard/Manabase to something like 2 Tundra and the rest Fetch and Basics but why? I'd rather have the manabase I do play at the moment.

@Wasteland! I agree with Koby, for this deck it's probably better just to use
lands as "Tap for 1 Mana" and nothing more. This deck wants to reach the 8-10 land-count. No need for Wastelandes here.

Greetings

[Teknique]

This deck absolutely can not afford to run wastelands. It neuters your own Entreats, kills your ability to Top, and keeps you off double U.

Wasteland isn't even good against Thresh in this deck because they play a Trop and play their goose before you can waste. The damage is already done, and you'll be wishing you had 1 more mana to pay for dazes and spell pierces as you try to clear the board.

[Einherjer]

Id like some critics on my manabase, as Ive never been too good at building a decent one.
The one with splash is:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Glacial Fortress
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Tropical Island
1 Misty Rainforest
//making 23 for a 61 card-deck.

If id play plain UW it would look like this:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Glacial Fortress
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1....(Fetchie? Island?)
Is 22 enough? What do you think? (for a 60 card deck)

Need some ideas...thank you very much.

[Arsenal]

I suppose you'll be in situations where hardcasting Force of Will + playing Jace all in one turn is going to happen, but I suspect more situations will arise where you see your opponent stuck on mana/color and you can seize the advantage by playing Jace + Wastelanding your opponent's meager black source. Or in the control mirror, making your opponent fetch for basics early, preventing him from hitting that WWWX for a profitably EtA when he wanted to Miracle it.

I can see the advantages of hitting every land drop and getting to 10+ mana on board, but I also see the advantages of being able to outmana/outcolor your opponents if they falter even a little, and then getting into Crucible nonsense is just the icing on the cake. Again, think of when you're in a control mirror (Miracle vs. Miracle); I certainly don't want to be staring at my opponent's Wastelands while I open with Glacial Fortress, fetch, Tundra.

[Maëlig]

Hello everyone! I Wonder Why Nobody posted The List from The last starcitygames tournament. I actually really like thopter foundry As a kill for this Deck As it is able To take over The Game in Short Order. The List Misses snapcaster Mahrs which just seems wrong. I've been Working on The List for Some days now and this what i came up with:
<list>

I think this probably belongs in the CB thopter thread, despite the single CB in the main (strange choice).

Favourable
Maverick
Storm

Even/Favourable
RUG Tempo
Burn
UR

Unfavourable

BUG Control
Sneak Attack
Dredge
Merfolk/Goblins/Tribal

I'd add a category "even/unfavorable", to which I would move BUG control, possibly dredge and S&S. These MU are far from unwinnable. Esper blade on the other hand belongs to the unfavourable cattegory. Nic fit (is that even played any more?) is very favorable. Reanimator even/favorable.

[learntolove6]

I wouldn't play less than 4 Terminus and 4 SDT! In any way, why did you splash Red? I understand the Black/Green-Splash (Im running Green) but why Red? Why Sulfur Elemental? Little white Creatures are nothing we are worried about (the only one being Gaddock Teeg but hes 2/2), REB doesn't seem too useful either.

On the Matchups:
I tested on Cockatrice vs random-opponents:
MUD: 5-0
MonoB: 4-0
MonoW: 6-1

So yeah, it's good vs random-decks(blurgh) but there's another deck that's certainly a bad MU: Esperblade. Discard, Counter, Creatures, Tokens, Batterskull, all in all difficult to handle and a tough MU in any way. SneakAttack can be shifted to the even-area when having a good SB: For the SneakAttack-MU I bring from my Sideboard:
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Meddling Mage
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblivion-Ring(1 in Main)
1 Humility
1 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip (not sure about these though - because they can activate SneakAttack in any way - didnt test with KG yet)
which makes the MU quite okay.

Greetings

trust me on this. REB and Sulfur elemental make Esperblade neigh impossible to lose post board. They just can't apply any pressure and you can easily kill their Jace. That's why they are there. I don't run wasteland because I want to cast big EtAs.

thanks forr the match-up answers everyone!

[Einherjer]

Oh right, I havn't had the Esperblade-MU on the radar (even though I mentioned it a little below - strange) yes with a meta full of Esperblade your deck might be perfectly built to fight this. Excuse me.

Greetings

[JimmyC27]

Id like some critics on my manabase, as Ive never been too good at building a decent one.
The one with splash is:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Glacial Fortress
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Tropical Island
1 Misty Rainforest
//making 23 for a 61 card-deck.

If id play plain UW it would look like this:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Glacial Fortress
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1....(Fetchie? Island?)
Is 22 enough? What do you think? (for a 60 card deck)

Need some ideas...thank you very much.

I've been playing these 22 lands with no complaints:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta (or any 4 blue fetchlands)
1 Marsh Flats (or any 1 white fetchland)
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
3 Glacial Fortress
1 Karakas

[Arsenal]

Is Fortress solely there are anti-Choke tech?

[Einherjer]

Is Fortress solely there are anti-Choke tech?

+ for Tundra 3-6 (4-7)

[anwei]

Id like some critics on my manabase, as Ive never been too good at building a decent one.

1. You want Karakas in both builds.
2. 3 Galacial Fortress might be too many.
3. With 8 fetches, when basic Plains is important, I like running a 5th White fetch (beyond Strand) - this is G/W, in the splash build, so it can still get Tropical Island.
4. 22/60 is fine, especially with this amount of card selection.
5. Basics are so good, and you want dependable UUWW so early, that I would not splash a color unless really needed. K Grip is probably not reason enough (nor, imo, is Sulfur Elemental - Terminus/EE both do a better job, on-color).

Is Back to Basics a serious contender in some sideboards to serve the same effect and cutting off multiple 3c strategies at the same time.

There are enough grindy, non-basic-heavy, Wasteland-swinging decks in the format, where you're often fetching basics early anyway, that I like it a lot, especially if not running Wasteland (and if not running counterbalance). After they see 0 wastes G1, they fetch duals aggressively G2, and you can completely restart their mana development, leaving them hoping to top-deck (the right) fetches. Also deals with problem lands like Grove or Factory.

Wasteland in a control shell doesn't serve the same purpose as it does in a tempo shell. In a tempo shell, you want to drop an early threat, then ride that to victory via cheap counters/disruption and keeping your open on tilt by attacking his manabase.

In a control shell, it is there to deplete a finite resource that you (control decks will almost always run more lands than any other decks) have more of than your opponent. If you happen to ride an early Clique to victory because you Wasteland them out of the game, fine, but more often, you'll just outgrind your opponent and be up on land. In a control mirror (which you may see more of now that Miracle is a DTB), I sure as hell don't want to be the one without Wasteland; just the mere fact of having Wasteland may force your opponent to fetch basics when he doesn't want to, etc. Add in Crucible out of the board and it gets even crazier.

Your only win condition faster than a 6 turn clock requires you to have as much mana as possible, especially if they're playing counters or removal. It's really hard to image a normal game where you're wasting some one off a crucial color for 10 turns of the game, during which you never need to wipe the board and don't lose your threat.
Your lands are a lot better than theirs, most of their non-basics don't matter (and you can deal with ones that do, like CB for Punishing Fire or removal for Factory), and the game will go long enough that denying them a color is rarely effective. Wasteland will lose you many more games than it wins.

[anwei]

I turned on part of the SCG Invitational to catch a feature match with Ronnie Ritner playing U/W CB Miracles with Fettergeist (!) and Trinket Mage in from the board.
Interested to see that list...

[wweenieking]

I just wanted to reply real quick as I saw my list was mentioned. I'm the one that top 32ed SCG Worcester with UW Miracle (yes I play thopter foundry). Someone mentioned I played one CB but there was in fact 3 main 1 in the board. It should also be noted that I drew last round as I was guaranteed top 32. Another thing to note is I built a 2nd copy and my friend got one place better than I (I think 23rd). Not bad for 304 players. The deck is awesome, tho the sneak and show matchup is weak, but I knew that when I built it.

For reference I played vs:
dredge 2-0
dredge 2-0
burn 0-2 (ran so bad)
burn 2-0
70 card mirror 2-1
goblins 2-0
sneak show 1-2
sneak show 2-0

Quite the decks I played vs. Also the week prior I lost in the finals of a 7 round gpt for Atlanta cutting to top 8. If you have any questions on the list Ill be sure to answer them. I did try other versions of this deck, but felt this was the strongest.

P.S. I know this isn't a thopter thread, but my deck does have miracles in it, and I saw someone brought my list up so I felt I should respond. Also dredge is a huge bye, I'm 8-0 in games vs it, just use your swords and terminus properly. So who ever said its unwinnable must be playing the matchup wrong.
ur delver 1-1-1

P.S.S. Props to Chags (his source name) as we were exchanging lists and mine is very close to one he sent me.

[Water_Wizard]

Congrats on your finish!

I just built you list and I have two comments/questions.

First, your Counterbalance Curve is awfully weak around the 2/3 cc spots. (8 2cc and 1 3cc maindeck). Was this ever an issue? I guess if you're just trying to beat RUG, 15 1cc slots suffice.

Second, why did you pick Surgical Extraction, over say, Grafdigger's Cage for the two sideboard slots? I assume the UGS main is to give Engineered Explosives some range and not to cast SE. Without SCM, SE loses some value.

[wweenieking]

Thanks for the congrats!

I had played a version with a different curve (ensnaring bridge, o ring, clique) but the issue I had was there were too many cute one ofs. I wanted to play just a smooth consistent list, and also wanted to keep the curve low as too not rely on resolving something vs rug where they have 4 pierce md. The matchups where I want CB having a 1 on top with be devastating and I do have I think 8 2cmc so theres a good chance Ill have a 2cmc on top (I.E. Rug). A matchup like GW I dont plan on beating them with CB (tho sometimes it can get the job done), I'm going to beat them with the 4 md Terminus when I 2 for 1 them or more each time I cast it. They have too many ways to get around CB or just kill it.

You are right with the md Sea, its for e.e. and sometimes casts thopter foundry. I loved the graveyard mix. They are good in different matchups. For example, Relic is amazing vs rug to keep goyf and nimble small, where as I love surgical vs loam. (this matchup is easy). The matchups I bring in gy hate, they have plenty of answers for Cage. (grudge, natures claim, grip, ect). Vs dredge my plan is to use relic to keep them from completely going crazy, and surgical and swords to keep narco and ichorid off the table. Thus they never activate the bridges, and so never having a zombie on board. Dredge cant beat thopter foundry so game 1 you crush them with that (buying time with stp and terminus), game 2 you have the same combo, but the 4th swords, 3rd e tutor, 4 gy hate cards, bridge, and I forget what else, but thats more than enough. Just dont let them leave their draw step with a guy in play and you cant lose I promise.

[Einherjer]

Congrats aswell!
What would your list look like now. Still the same?

[wweenieking]

It would depend on what I was trying to beat. If I were trying to beat sneak show, I would change the board by at least adding a third meddling mage. The 2nd needle wouldn't be awful for sneak show too. Just stopping the Griselbrand draw 7 can go a very long way. I would also put the karakas main deck as an out to emrakul (it answers griselbrand too, but they draw at least 7 so your still going to lose). The deck as is I dont think can lose to rug. Im 4-1 vs it, but my lose was an older build with the clunky 3cmc cards, and have since added the 22nd land, and a 2nd e.e. I've also been wanting to cut the counterspell, but I keep it for the cmc.

To answer the thing about wastelands in the control deck. I had 21 land, but wanted another, so I added 2 wastelands, so I still get the colorless if I need it, but I also get a little utility if Im a little flooded. The crucible was then added to compliment the wastes, and also to have another 3cmc.

[Iron Buddha]

If you want to metagame this deck against Show and Tell, how would you build it?
3-4 Spell Pierce main?
1 Humility + 2-3 Cunning Wish (do you think that's an option? especially if backed up by counters?)
Hatebear like Meddling Mage main?
anything else?

[klaus]

Id like some critics on my manabase, as Ive never been too good at building a decent one.

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Glacial Fortress
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Tropical Island
1 Misty Rainforest

Rainforest should be a Windswept Heath. The rest looks fine.
My single non-color land of choice is Kor Haven btw. I digg how it forces your opponent to overextend with their guys.
-
Edit: just went 4-1 at a small but competitive local event. Some points:
- EtA won several games that seemed lost (I still think 2 [not 3] is the cocrrect number).
- CB-Top is an unfair combo
- Terminus is an unfair card
- Those 2 Oblivion Rings really shone every time I drew them
- also I splashed red for 2 Sulfur Elementals (killed some Mothers, Thalias and even 1 Teeg) and 3 red blasts - very recommendable in a meta full of RUG, S&T and the mirror.