All B/R update speculation.

[majikal]

I have a sneaking suspicion that WotC are going to troll us all by banning a lot of shit. Whether it needs to be or not is another thing entirely, but here's where I think we'll end up:

Out-
Griselbrand - for being fuckbusted
Show and Tell - for being increasingly powerful with each new set (same reason as SotF)
Delver of Secrets - for consistently adapting to the multitudes of hate being thrown at it and only really having a hard time against the fuckbusted deck that is probably getting banhammered itself.

In-
Land Tax
Mind Twist

[I am the brainwasher]

I go out on a limb here and say that all those

DEAL WITH IT

clowns, are either playing the deck(s) by themselves, or are just plane ignorant and fail to see that their lack of skill is the reason why their testing seems fair or completeley balanced.
It is just the god damn truth that "combo-decks" (and I shudder while I write the word combo here) that abuse S&T doesn't have to jump through all the loops like every other deck, combo or not, has to in this format.
Well, except Belcher. But this is a complete different story.
So do I spam 24/7 "Your deck's fucked @ 20th, DEAL WITH IT" ? No I don't, so pls spare your nonsense as well. Gees... .

[I am the brainwasher]

Out-
Show and Tell - for being increasingly powerful with each new set (same reason as SotF)
Delver of Secrets - for consistently adapting to the multitudes of hate being thrown at it and only really having a hard time against the fuckbusted deck that is probably getting banhammered itself.

Hopefully they are smart enough to ban S&T now, which they failed to do at the last bannings.
I think that Delver gets banned isn't too far away from happening. It might be a surprise, but I would be 100% fine with this, even if it is (yet) too unreasonable.
I would not be too sad to see Canadian Threshold going back to the status that you really have to work hard for your victories and not just protect 1st turn Delver, do I win? that everyone is capable of these days.

[Esper3k]

Really? We're at the point where we're back to wanting to ban a creature that dies to almost all removal and doesn't do anything but attack?

Tarmogoyf is sad he's no longer in the banhammer spotlight.

[Tacosnape]

Best part of this thread - The best tactical argument against fixing Legacy is to use bold and large fonts.

Nope! Thanks to Phillip the format has stabilized

Is there a quote of the year thread I can nominate you for? If not, I should just order you a pizza.

I have a sneaking suspicion that WotC are going to troll us all by banning a lot of shit. Whether it needs to be or not is another thing entirely, but here's where I think we'll end up:

Out-
Griselbrand - for being fuckbusted
Show and Tell - for being increasingly powerful with each new set (same reason as SotF)
Delver of Secrets - for consistently adapting to the multitudes of hate being thrown at it and only really having a hard time against the fuckbusted deck that is probably getting banhammered itself.

In-
Land Tax
Mind Twist

I was surprised only momentarily at how much I would agree with that ban/restrict list. Then I realized it was Majikal posting it, and remember that he and I pretty much agree on everything ever related to the B&R list.

I'd still be a little nervous about Mind Twist, because I think it's secretly a blue card. And that some Duck Hunt or Faeries list is going to durdle-troll me until turn 4-5 and then just win because of it. That said, any excuse to break Divert/Misdirection is cool by me.

Also, Majikal - No Earthcraft? I think of all the unbannable cards, Earthcraft's by far the safest. Or are we just out of principal not allowing another 2-card combo that can be splashed in a blue shell?

[I am the brainwasher]

Really? We're at the point where we're back to wanting to ban a creature that dies to almost all removal and doesn't do anything but attack?

Tarmogoyf is sad he's no longer in the banhammer spotlight.

I don't think anyone suggested it'll be banned because of its powerlevel. Just going through what the DCI-merry-go-round takes a spin at.

[Mr. Safety]

Would Earthcraft make Cheerios a playable deck?

[majikal]

Also, Majikal - No Earthcraft? I think of all the unbannable cards, Earthcraft's by far the safest. Or are we just out of principal not allowing another 2-card combo that can be splashed in a blue shell?

That, and the fact that I actually play Earthcraft on a pretty regular basis in EDH and have come to realize that I win every single time it resolves, often on the spot, with or without Squirrel Nest.

I think it's dangerous in Elves, Enchantress, and probably also some blue bullshit. Really, two-card kill combos that can't be disrupted with Bolt or Swords to Plowshares are probably the kind of thing that shouldn't exist in Legacy (and I can't think of any that do, for that matter).

[TooCloseToTheSun]

I go out on a limb here and say that all those

DEAL WITH IT

clowns, are either playing the deck(s) by themselves, or are just plane ignorant and fail to see that their lack of skill is the reason why their testing seems fair or completeley balanced.
It is just the god damn truth that "combo-decks" (and I shudder while I write the word combo here) that abuse S&T doesn't have to jump through all the loops like every other deck, combo or not, has to in this format.
Well, except Belcher. But this is a complete different story.
So do I spam 24/7 "Your deck's fucked @ 20th, DEAL WITH IT" ? No I don't, so pls spare your nonsense as well. Gees... .

Maybe the reason that you can't win is that you lack skill.

[joemauer]

I go out on a limb here and say that all those

DEAL WITH IT

clowns, are either playing the deck(s) by themselves, or are just plane ignorant and fail to see that their lack of skill is the reason why their testing seems fair or completeley balanced.
It is just the god damn truth that "combo-decks" (and I shudder while I write the word combo here) that abuse S&T doesn't have to jump through all the loops like every other deck, combo or not, has to in this format.
Well, except Belcher. But this is a complete different story.
So do I spam 24/7 "Your deck's fucked @ 20th, DEAL WITH IT" ? No I don't, so pls spare your nonsense as well. Gees... .

Please elaborate. I am having a hard time seeing the correlation between people not knowing the workings of aviation machines and the DCI's current B&R list.

[majikal]

Please elaborate. I am having a hard time seeing the correlation between people not knowing the workings of aviation machines and the DCI's current B&R list.

Remember, kids, you haven't won the argument until you have pointed out any and all spelling errors.

[mike1987]

Hopefully they are smart enough to ban S&T now, which they failed to do at the last bannings.
I think that Delver gets banned isn't too far away from happening. It might be a surprise, but I would be 100% fine with this, even if it is (yet) too unreasonable.
I would not be too sad to see Canadian Threshold going back to the status that you really have to work hard for your victories and not just protect 1st turn Delver, do I win? that everyone is capable of these days.

I dont see delver being ban though, there is just so much ways one can deal with it in legacy. It's just the deck as a whole that makes delver shine.

[majikal]

I dont see delver being ban though, there is just so much ways one can deal with it in legacy. It's just the deck as a whole that makes delver shine.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tie...nio=2012&mes=7

RUG Delver has been a known entity longer than Maverick has, and yet it still dominating by a very wide margin. Obviously there aren't very many ways to deal with it. You can theorycraft all you want, but the fact is hate doesn't exist for Delver.

[Telperion]

The SCG invitational is looking really interesting. The metagame breakdown shows the expected increase of control (BUG and stoneblade) that would help combat RUG and Griselbrand decks:

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...etagame_b.html

A lot of the successful players are metagaming with Gilded Drake and surgical extraction. Unfortunately, as the players have a composite record for both formats, it's hard to tell what really dominated the tournament. Can't wait to see this new U/B delver list.

[joemauer]

Remember, kids, you haven't won the argument until you have pointed out any and all spelling errors.

Yes, I win!

[Kich867]

Maybe the reason that you can't win is that you lack skill.

Baaa-zing? Got 'em?

Playing against show and tell is functionally identical to Go Fish. There is no skill whatsoever to be shown on either side of the table.

Duress.
*shows hand*
I'll take a <thing that wins the game>.
*discards thing that wins the game*

I find playing against my friend's pet deck, a mono green ramp deck that he enforces to be all green, old border, black border cards that revolves around Pattern of Rebirth and/or ramp to play Thorn Elemental and company, a more thought provoking and more strategically deep game than Show and Tell. You actually have to make decisions. Fancy that.

[I am the brainwasher]

Baaa-zing?
Playing against show and tell is functionally identical to Go Fish. There is no skill whatsoever to be shown on either side of the table.

This.
That is one of the reasons why I dislike those decks heavily. If you aren't plain stupid and tap yourself out, it is most of the time based on factors that are pure variance, favouring the deck that has disruption for the opposing draws/counterstrategy. Meh.

[Kich867]

Top 8:

1 RUG Delver
1 Merfolk
1 UW Control
1 UW Stoneblade
2 Reanimator
2 Esper Stoneblade

Ah, look at that. Zero main deck S&T and 8 Griselbrand. But there were 12 Stoneforge Mystics. Can't wait to see how many of you Chicken Littles jump on the "ban Mystic" train.

Yes, it's only one tournament, but the fact remains - formats adapt, people. It's smart to give it time for that to happen before calling for bannings. If Griselbargain is still dominating in September, then fine, ban him. If S&T is crapping on everything by then (and it certainly didn't at this Invitational), then give it the axe in September.

I mean, damn. All you have to do is look at the poll at the top of this page to realize that a number of you people are incredibly stupid when it comes to calling for bannings. Let Legacy be Legacy and sort itself out. It usually does, and it always takes time.

TLDR: Chill the f*** out, people.

Also, in before someone acts like my post count weakens my point when it actually doesn't.

That poll is years old. Don't post trash like the bolded section if you're going to post here.

Show and Tell not making showings doesn't make the card balanced or fun to play against in any regard.

I mean, that's a reasonable thing to assume, right? That despite a card's power level it not being in a top 8 (one) doesn't necessarily prove that it's perfectly balanced and acceptable in the game?

That perhaps if you take into account what the card actually does and not how often it's played, that it's a universally unfun card to deal with that will only get worse and worse as time goes on, and it's prevalence doesn't matter?

[Kich867]

The poll being years old doesn't change the fact the the majority of calls for bans are unfounded, pointless, and ultimately stupid. I will post that fact all day long.

Whether S&T is an unfun card to play against is nothing more than your opinion, an opinion that not everyone shares. Believe it or not, the fact that strategies like S&T or even long combo turns such as in High Tide exist is what some people like about Legacy, including myself. Whether S&T gets worse at time goes on is something that will remain to be seen, considering that playable answers to it can be printed. Assuming that can't happen is short-sightedness on your part.

Neither S&T or Griselbrand are oppressive right now, and therefore don't need to be banned in four days. That's the point I'm making.

Functional playable answers to the deck aren't very realistic. Playable answers would be a creature that kills a creature when it enters play, if it's Emrakul, that sucks for them and you might pull through it. Until they drop sneak attack and Griselbrand you.

You can't print a card that answers both Show and Tell and Sneak Attack.

Just because it's not oppressive right now (which is kinda bullshit), isn't a good reason to not ban it.

[joemauer]

A lot of cards that were put on the Legacy banned list were never oppressive. They are a bunch of reasons cards get put on that list. Both Griselbrand & Show and Tell meet criteria to be banned.

Show and Tell: It is a one card combo. See Tinker, Oath of Druids, Hermit Druid, Survival of the Fittest, or Flash on the banned list. Barring unusual circumstances all say I win if resolved. In fact I think Show and Tell is more broken than Tinker. Really what can you Tinker into play that is really that scary now a days? Is there a Legacy legal artifact more dangerous than Emrakul or Griselbrand? Serious question.

Griselbrand: Powerful draw engine. See Land Tax, Necropotence, Yawgmoth's Bargain, or Library of Alexandria. His card draw power is ranked lower than the two Necro enchantments, but probably higher than Land Tax and Library.