I also kind of like Cunning Wish here, for several reasons:
1. The ability to get rid of artifacts/enchantments effectively game 1.
2. The ability to find a Surgical Extraction game 1.
3. The fact that it's a CMC 3 to hang out for Counterbalance Shenanigans.
What targets should be run, though, beyond Surgical, Disenchant, and probably a Path to Exile?
Originally Posted by majikal
My first ideas were Misdirection and Memory's Journey, although the latter one only fits well when going with the green splash. Also, on a second thought, I can't imagine a situation where Journey would be better than Extraction.
Other possibilities include Elemental Blasts or even something clunky like the white pulse, but this could be overkill as well and probably fills the sideboard with unneeded stuff.
Conan, what is best in life? - To crush your enemies, see them driven before you... and to hear the lamentation of their women!
Maybe Wing Shards
And 1 Pulse of the Fields seems amazing in stabilizing some match-ups...
@klaus: Could you post your red splash list? :)
I can: Reanimator. Except for Griselbrand, they often run their fatties as singletons, and can get multiple different targets in their yard.
Surgical is probably still the better option in general, though, at least if you have SCM.
Your ego has a big part of the old primer. "I", "I've", and "I'm" appear over 100 times. It does not read as though you are building concensus but rather hyping yourself and your ideas. Hence, i suggest to be humble and make the primer more accessible to someone who might not agree with each and every card choice.+1
Hanni, I love your passion for deck building, but there have been tons of UW control lists featuring your approach before, the only actual difference is that you have been hyping CB-Top quite persistently - I've tested most of the viable approaches extensively and came to the conclusion that CB-Top wasn't the way to go.
Now a 1 mana Wrath comes along and suddenly CB-Top is cool.
I don't want to sound harsh but ..so we got lucky the miracle is white and fits the deck neatly.
I'm not hating on you, it's just that I totally see Koby's point: humbleness where humbleness is due --> primers should be written with a semi-scientific approach.
Well yeah, please don't take personal offense.
Cheers,
klausWow. I'm not even sure how to reply to this. You guys clearly don't understand the history behind this deck at all. Back in 2007-2008, I was continuously bashed throughout development from the Landstill community (the U/W Control deck of the time) for trying to create a U/W Counterbalance shell. Throughout all of the roadblocks, I still developed the deck and created a new thread for it. Some of those who were interested in the deck and contributed alot asked me to write a new primer for it, so I did.Wow! Conceited much? This isn't "your U/W Control deck" and its addition to the DTB certainly isn't 4 years overdue. Just because you started the thread doesn't make it "your" deck. Please show me the Top 8's over the past 4 years that show this deck should have been a DTB. Clearly, they do not exist and it is insulting to the moderators that you imply this should have been a DTB for the past 4 years. A simple, "Yes, we're on DTB!" or "I'm so glad the thread I started was upgraded to DTB!" would do.
All complaining aside, Hanni, I appreciate your contributions to this and other threads. I'm looking forward to the updated primer. While you can be adamant about your points of view, they usually are solid arguments founded in a strong understanding of the deck. I also appreciate Thorondor's and klaus's recent discussions regarding a "base" for the deck, as the base goes a long way to defining the deck and differentiating it from UW Stoneblade.
The primer was written in an "I" style, get over it.
No Klaus, there weren't tons of U/W Control decks with the Counterbalance approach before, at least not during the time of this decks creation and development back in 2008. You should know this better than anyone else because you were part of that Landstill community.
CB/Top has always been the way to go for U/W Control, but the metagame was simply bad for it when Merfolk was the DTB and played en masse. Looking back now, a few adjustments like running 4 Wasteland would have improved that matchup significantly, but that's neither here nor there. Point is, U/W Control was just a bad deck in general back in that metagame, Counterbalance or not. Then SFM came out, and the SFM shell became the go-to U/W Control (albeit it was an aggro/control deck) because it smashed Merfolk. Fast forward to right now... Merfolk is gone, and U/W Counterbalance (with sweepers) is better against the current metagame than the SFM lists.
Conceited? lol
I was making a joke regarding the 4 years overdue thing. But let me point this out; obviously this deck wasn't a DTB, because a DTB is classified as a big player in a metagame. There are plenty of Tier 1 quality decks out there that aren't in the DTB because they don't see enough play.
At any rate, I've decided that I'm not going to write the primer anymore. Thanks for being assholes about it.
Tons of other discussions and stuff I'd like to address, since the page has grown 5 pages over the last few days while I was getting my new computer up and running, but I don't have enough time to do that right now. Just one thing I want to point out though, in regards to C Wish being used to answer artifacts/enchantments... it's slow, and O Ring does that job just fine. Sure, O Ring it doesn't grab Surgical Extraction, but it does answer Emrakul, so there are pros and cons for both. C Wish costing as much mana as it does, though, makes O Ring a much better versatile answer card if you ask me.
Hanni, I was looking forward to your updated primer, and I hope you change your mind on it.
People are gonna be assholes, its the internet lol, just gotta move forward and get over it.
the Wishboard:
1x PtE is a must have, and 1x Spell Pierce you likely want as well. Apart from that I think Disenchant should become Ray of Distortion (or Fracturing Gust if the metagame calls for it): Ray of Distortion is straight out better against Counterbalance and SFM, and probably worse against Vial, so you have the choice. Wish into RoD as opposed to Wish into Disenchant also looks much better if compared to Oblivion Ring.
Then, 1x PotF if Burn is an issue, and 1x E.Tutor, so you can grab Humility and Canonist, and last but not least 1x CA-spell like FoF or White Sun’s Zenith. A CA-spell takes up SB-slot, but frees up a maindeck slot, which is of higher value, since you can afford to run less high-end cards.
1 Path to Exile
1 Spell Pierce
1 Ray of Distortion
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Fact or Fiction/White Sun’s Zenith
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pulse of the Fields
In summary, I think Cunning Wish is better than Oblivion Ring if you make full use of it.
...how to metagame against S&T?
To be honest, I wish the primers on this site were wikis, so they could be updated more often, and by more than the the original poster, at least in cases when the original poster is no longer active on the thread.
As someone who got back into the game relatively recently (last Fall), there are gobs of useful information in these threads and no one can realistically go through the entire history. Updating a wiki with the established lists/compiled knowledge as the metagame changes would be nifty.
Anyway, I'm way off topic now, so to bring it back, I wouldn't be so sure that Merfolk is gone from the meta, what with Cavern of Souls and the squeezing out of Stoneblade. Does anyone know well how Miracle Control can deal with Merfolk? They can slow-roll Terminus, but can that slow them down enough?
The problem with relying on Pulse of the Fields against burn (or RUG, for that matter) is Sulfuric Vortex. Unless you run enough enchantment removal that you're confident you can blow up the Sulfuric Vortex, personally, I prefer CoP:Red or Aegis of Honor.
Ditto.
+1 to the wiki suggestion - would definitely be a revolution to the source
Hanni, didn't intend to make you take your ball and go home.
Maybe you'll update the primer when you have some more time?
At least 2 other people offered their assistance to help you update it and I'll chip in with sideboard suggestions and match-up analysis.
His list is now up at SCG.
I will be testing Fettergeist in the board. He's a reasonable dude on defense to deal with Rug's non-Goyf guys, lets you board into a faster deck if the clock is running low, and might be really decent in the Sneak/Show matchup, as having enough 3-drops does a lot to swing the late-game inevitability in your favor, and having another solid clock is a big deal.
What do you all expect the metagame to start siding in to improve their UW Miracles match up?
Hanni, I'd happy aswell if you updated the primer.
@Anti-Miracle: Mostly they will return to Krosan Grip, atleast Maverick will start to play multiples of them in their sideboard - same for RUG as the now running Ancient Grudge isn't near Krosan Grips effecitvness. If Terminator really does get a big threat to the metagame people might start to play more discard-tempo-decks which are hosing us quite a bit. Thought Scour might be played more and more aswell as it 1) deals with miracles or 2) deals with top once we miracled in their turn.
Greetings
4 STP
4 BS
4 FOW
4 Top
4 Terminus
3 Jace
3 CB
3 Pierce
2 CS
2 SCM
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Oblivion Ring
[37]
9 Fetch (incl. 1 Arid Mesa)
3 Tundra
2 G. Fortress
2 Plains
3 Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Kor Haven
1 Karakas
[23]
SB:
2 Surgical Ex.
2 Relic
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 PtE
1 CB
2 Disenchant
1 Clique
1 Jace
1 flex slot
Last edited by klaus; 06-18-2012 at 04:12 AM.
Teferi.
Can you imagine?
Matt Bevenour in real life
@klaus: Did Flusterstorms not give you the same effect you wanted out of the REBs?
@Tammit67: Yargh. Haha.
I have played the S&T match up at real events quite a few times and I'm always confident going into it.
I feel the list I have been running has been fairly strong against the deck and I feel the matchup is actually even/favorable. My main deck counter suite has been 4 FoW, 4 Counterspell, 2 Spell Pierce, 3 CB. In the side I have 2 more Pierces, 2 Humility, a Porphyry node, Pithing Needles. Game 1 is 50/50 with that amount of disruption, and post board I say my build, and many others I've seen, are favored.
Having said that, I finally lost my first match to it this past week due to a couple issues: First, my opponent was running Wipe Away which is rather uncommon among current lists, but makes sense as our meta is very blue heavy. If they were echoing truth's I would have been able to protect my Show and Tell'd Humilities games 2 and 3. Second, I was greedy because my post board hands had Humilities and Pithing needles with not much filtering, so naturally I got stuck on 3 lands both games. I could have cast Humility and protected it after it was bounced, but I couldn't find land (or a Terminus)
Gegengewicht, Weissagekreisel - Du bist dran.
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