All B/R update speculation.

[Gheizen64]

"Brainstorm whinners" and "brainstorm defenders" are both annoying.
Altough, brainstorm whinners are more annoying than defenders. I don't know which side is in right, but the fact is that both side are so fuckin boring with arguing about one stupid ordinary card in format. Brainstorm fix your hand! SO FUCKING WHAT?

16 of 16 decks played fetch lands, so, how about that we ban fetchlands? There are no chance for non-fetchland deck to top 16 because flooded strand and scalding tarn are so unfair. I think we have problem with format. Swords to plowshares?????? it can take any creature for W only???? SO unfair! lets ban stp!!!!

Wow such a new and well thought argument.

[wizard_of_gore]

@gheizen

Well, there is no difference in arguments. If someone going to complain about XX cards being in top 16, why not arguing about other XX cards in top 16....
BLUE COLOR is not archetype, strategy, deck...
It's stupid to arguing about COLORS in one eternal format, where 95% decks are splashing other color for cards just for their efficiency....

It's your problem if you wanna force a mono green deck, just because you want to play a MONO GREEN deck with bad cards like harmonize and beast within in place for draw/quality and removal. And people don't like playing with bad cards, when you can just throw in couple of duals and fetches and play brainstorm and swords to plowshares /lightning bolt.
Other decks without brainstorm, play WITHOUT brainstorm because THEY DON'T NEED IT and has other mechanism to manipulate the game in their favor, but NOT because they WANT TO BE A DECK WITHOUT BRAINSTORM....

[AriLax]

If anything, Griselbrand goes over Show and Tell. There are a million cards that let you cheat a fatty into play, but only Griselbrand does what he does (wins the game immediately and can't be raced). The closest things are Iona and Jin, but Iona is easily answered at card parity and Jin gives you a window to kill it.

[thefringthing]

I feel like banning Griselbrand instead of Show and Tell would be a bit like banning Vengevine instead of Survival of the Fittest. Show and Tell is inherently a "broken" effect, and it looks like Wizards is going to keep printing huge splashy game-ending fatties on a regular basis. It would be sad to hurt cool decks like Dream Halls in the process, but I feel like Show and Tell must inevitably leave our format eventually.

[Gheizen64]

@gheizen

Well, there is no difference in arguments. If someone going to complain about XX cards being in top 16, why not arguing about other XX cards in top 16....
BLUE COLOR is not archetype, strategy, deck...
It's stupid to arguing about COLORS in one eternal format, where 95% decks are splashing other color for cards just for their efficiency....

It's your problem if you wanna force a mono green deck, just because you want to play a MONO GREEN deck with bad cards like harmonize and beast within in place for draw/quality and removal. And people don't like playing with bad cards, when you can just thrown couple of duals and fetches and play brainstorm and swords to plowshares /lightning bolt.

Just because i'm in the mood:

Does FoW let you keep an otherwise unkeepable hand. No. Does FoW get played in every combo deck. No. Is FoW a fair answer to targeted discard. Yes. Is FoW a good top deck when you are losing. No.

But regardless ubiquity isn't the only argument. It's raw power level. I'd say Force of Will is a card that is close being ban worthy but can't affect board state, requires a reasonably heavy commitment to blue, and is most of the time draining to an important resource (your hand). Of course having brainstorm can gas up your hand again for the low low cost of U and sending back a sandbagged land and fetching.

Brainstorm being a skill-tester is one of the biggest lies of this format. You know what's ten thousand times more skill intensive? Portent, Top, Ponder. Just by being sorceries, they involve a much more complex decision tree.
Brainstorm isn't the most skill intensive card of the format. Brainstorm require you to cast it when u have a fetch open. Put the two worst card on top, shuffle. Top require one million more decisions, especially in early game by virtue of having a cost for seeing the top 3. Being an instant doesn't make a card more skill intensive, it's the opposite, since you can almost always play it at the right moment, whereas you couldn't with a sorcery and you'd have to ponder the opportunity cost of tapping mana on your turn.

Force of will require a big investment to blue, is a pretty bad topdeck, and is bad in some matchups where you don't want card-disadvantage whereas card advantage/selection is never bad. Also force of will existing mean Belcher and other similar non-protected combo decks sucks.

Fetchlands are 10 cards, and if you think that banning 10 cards when u could ban 1 to get a similar effect (less consistent manabases) is a good idea, well you have your opinion man, but that's not mine.
Duals ARE Legacy.

Also, unban Tax, Twist, Vise, Jar and Earthcraft plz.



Best fixers in a world without BS would probably be Ponder, Top and GSZ. Or just play more card drawing, since BS wasn't exactly a T1 play before.

Just a couple.

[wizard_of_gore]

About baning fetchlands... this was sarcasm...

[nedleeds]

Duals define the format, they are a pillar and are in most legacy decks. I would quit if the banned duals. Should we ban those too?

Duals and Brainstorm are the part of the core of the format, why not play a format without Brainstorm if you're so tired of it?

Any deck can play duals. Any deck can play wasteland. Only decks with islands get to savagely cheat their mana, get free mulligans, and laugh at discard by sporting brainstorm. I do play other formats, namely Vintage ... where Brainstorm is rightly restricted. Also, points for using the hollow, 'pillar' non-argument, its up there with skill intensive and format defining as one of my favorite hollow statements.

[Tao]

Just a little bit on the "but it is only a cantrip why would you ban it???" argument. LSV arguing for banning Ponder in Standard in this video:

http://www.channelfireball.com/home/...c-cruise-2012/

This would get Ponder (a card similar to Brainstorm yet multiple times worse) banned in all important format except Legacy. Despite only being a cantrip. Despite there not even being any Fetchlands or other useful ways to shuffle the Library in Standard.

[rxavage]

Just a little bit on the "but it is only a cantrip why would you ban it???" argument. LSV arguing for banning Ponder in Standard in this video:

http://www.channelfireball.com/home/...c-cruise-2012/

This would get Ponder (a card similar to Brainstorm yet multiple times worse) banned in all important format except Legacy. Despite only being a cantrip. Despite there not even being any Fetchlands or other useful ways to shuffle the Library in Standard.

That's just to prevent Snapcaster from being blamed and to appease the people that want a banning to weaken Delver. But that isn't about Legacy, comparing pineapples to oranges.

[majikal]

If anything, Griselbrand goes over Show and Tell. There are a million cards that let you cheat a fatty into play, but only Griselbrand does what he does (wins the game immediately and can't be raced). The closest things are Iona and Jin, but Iona is easily answered at card parity and Jin gives you a window to kill it.

Let's not kid ourselves. They are probably both going down if they are going to pull the trigger.

[Tao]

That's just to prevent Snapcaster from being blamed and to appease the people that want a banning to weaken Delver. But that isn't about Legacy, comparing pineapples to oranges.

I wonder if you guys REALLY think this way. That there are individual arguments for banning cantrips left and right in every format but that the reasons for these bans just magically don't apply to Legacy?

[Star|Scream]

I wonder if you guys REALLY think this way. That there are individual arguments for banning cantrips left and right in every format but that the reasons for these bans just magically don't apply to Legacy?

Brainsterm it's a pillerr UV der format.

[Snap_Keep]

Any deck can play duals. Any deck can play wasteland. Only decks with islands get to savagely cheat their mana, get free mulligans, and laugh at discard by sporting brainstorm. I do play other formats, namely Vintage ... where Brainstorm is rightly restricted. Also, points for using the hollow, 'pillar' non-argument, its up there with skill intensive and format defining as one of my favorite hollow statements.

Huh, I thought part of the attraction of legacy was being able to play the iconic Dual / Fetchland manabase allowing decks to easily splash colors. Since any deck can play duals and fetches that means any deck can splash for Brainstorm. I'm not trolling, I actually want to know... Why aren't you just playing Modern if Brainstorm makes you so mad? Brainstorm and duals/fetches are the core of legacy. You don't see me on vintage forums complaining about the P9 are too OP and that every good deck has to play Black Lotus and Recall.

Star Scream... Do you ever actually say anything interesting or compelling or do you always act like a retard?

[Star|Scream]

Huh, I thought part of the attraction of legacy was being able to play the iconic Dual / Fetchland manabase allowing decks to easily splash colors. Since any deck can play duals and fetches that means any deck can splash for Brainstorm. I'm not trolling, I actually want to know... Why aren't you just playing Modern if Brainstorm makes you so mad? Brainstorm and duals/fetches are the core of legacy. You don't see me on vintage forums complaining about the P9 are too OP and that every good deck has to play Black Lotus and Recall.

Star Scream... Do you ever actually say anything interesting or compelling or do you always act like a retard?

I tried. I really did. But I soon realized the type of person I primarily disagreed with has problems comprehending basic logic. So now I mainly just troll.

EDIT: also the first paragraph you wrote is exactly the same as my last post.

[Tao]

Brainstorm and duals/fetches are the core of legacy. You don't see me on vintage forums complaining about the P9 are too OP and that every good deck has to play Black Lotus and Recall.

Just to make sure that I don't misinterpret what you are saying: your point is that Brainstorm - just like the power 9 - should stay in the format despite being obviously overpowered because of nostalgic reasons?

[Julian23]

Just to make sure that I don't misinterpret what you are saying: your point is that Brainstorm - just like the power 9 - should stay in the format despite being obviously overpowered because of nostalgic reasons?

Despite my own sentiment that Brainstorm should stay legal, it's kinda hard to draw a comparison to Vintage. Even if something was so fucking freaking overpowered it would still stay legal in Vintage. Read: Yawgmoth's Will / Tinker.

[sdematt]

I feel like banning Griselbrand instead of Show and Tell would be a bit like banning Vengevine instead of Survival of the Fittest. Show and Tell is inherently a "broken" effect, and it looks like Wizards is going to keep printing huge splashy game-ending fatties on a regular basis. It would be sad to hurt cool decks like Dream Halls in the process, but I feel like Show and Tell must inevitably leave our format eventually.

I agree with the fact that axing Show and Tell leaves a large hole where all the Dream Halls/Hive Mind/other decks come out to play, while dealing with the Griselbrand issue. However, I feel this is a lot like lobbing the leg off at the knee for an ingrown toenail.

Banning only Show and Tell does this, but also leaves Griselbrand to be Reanimated or Hypergenesised or Eureka'd into play, and the "problem" hasn't been solved.

Banning Sneak Attack also does something, but not really what the format is going for.

I feel like banning Griselbrand instead of Show and Tell would be a bit like banning Vengevine instead of Survival of the Fittest

However, I strongly disagree with the above statement. Banning Griselbrand is banning the problem card here, like Vengevine. I'm not here to get into a Survival discussion, but I don't think Survival would be a real deck in the meta today without the Vengevine angle of attack. Even then, Surgical is a card now. I understand their reasoning in banning a powerful engine, which is why I would understand if Griselbrand gets banned. I wish in a way we could have a bit more time to find a "fix" for Griselbrand, but unfortunately, I don't think we will. Draw 7 for 7 is pretty good, as they probably expected.

-Matt

[nedleeds]

Just to make sure that I don't misinterpret what you are saying: your point is that Brainstorm - just like the power 9 - should stay in the format despite being obviously overpowered because of nostalgic reasons?

Thats what he's saying essentially. He cant refute my arguments about the cards power level and ubiquity. He trolls saying I'm 'mad'. He says brainstorm, a blue card, is the 'core' of legacy. Which of course doesn't actually mean anything. Then he calls me a pussy and tells me to play modern becuae he cant refute the facts about the card. Tells me that playing islands, and starting every deck with 4 copies of the same overpowered colored card is a good thing. Makes inane comparisons to lands ... which are required when building a deck and saying they are ubiquitous and thus should be banned also.

[Telperion]

Griselbrand fueled combo winter is in full effect, and it seems that 2 maverick decks, elves, and goblins are in the scg open's top 8...

[Michael Keller]

Here's the problem as I see it:

Show and Tell, at its very core, is an inherently broken accelerate printed in an era where something like Griselbrand or Emrakul (from a mechanical and design standpoint) would be unthinkable. Over time, it has steadily increased in power to the point where it has gotten incredibly good - but not yet to the broken ceiling it can hit.

That is, until, Griselbrand was printed.

But here's the anomaly: Griselbrand actually is broken itself too to the point where even without Show and Tell, it still creates incredibly potent, devastating circumstances. It is virtually invincible. Show and Tell right now is a victim of circumstance. Griselbrand is a creature, which makes it incredibly diverse to cheat into play using various strategies like Hypergenesis, Eureka and Reanimate.

Show and Tell is fundamentally broken and is a card with no ceiling as to what potential it can reach the more the Magic universe expands. However, in this extremely rare set of circumstances, Griselbrand actually overshadows its enabler - which is why people are turning their heads back and pointing the finger at Show and Tell and saying, "Ban you!"

TL;DR: Show and Tell would be fine - for right now - in a format without Griselbrand. Griselbrand might be fine in a format without Show and Tell. Grave-hate is main-decked in Vintage all the time. Perhaps if Griselbrand stays legal, we might be seeing this happen to Legacy.