Your main deck looks pretty typical. Given that you're playing Kiki-Jiki, you might want to consider maximizing the number of mountains on the off chance you want to straight up cast him.Originally Posted by woodjt5
As for your board - I've never really liked Surgical Extraction as the only form of grave hate. It's decent early if you can hit the first dredger before they can dredge into another, but in the mid to late game it's not really all that disruptive. You might consider Relic of Progenitus in this spot. I've really warmed up to it recently since it can be relevant in non-dredge matches (shrinks Knight of the Reliquary, neuters Scavenging Ooze etc.)
You might also consider replacing your third Stingscourger with a second Pyrokinesis. With 2 Stingers and 4 Matrons in the main deck, chances are you'll be able to Show and Tell one or the other into play when you need to, especially in games 2 and 3 when you know to keep one around.
Lastly, Leyline is an interesting choice of combo hate. My main problem with Leylines in general is that we have no hope of casting them beyond turn 0, so it often forces you to mulligan more aggressively than you otherwise might. Also remember that combo decks tend to have access to Chain of Vapor in order to bounce your Leyline before going off. In this situation, you're just making their life easier by starting their storm count at 1.
Chalice of the Void, on the other hand, is much harder for them to deal with. Similarly, Thorn of Amethyst is often useful against decks like Hive Mind where Leyline would be dead.
Thanks for the Suggestions Dav,
Because of the heavy red costs of Kiki-Jiki and WInstigator I don’t think any more than 2 Ports is optimal.
The last board spot actually rotates between the a tarfire, a lightning bolt, the 3rd stingscourger, and the 2nd pyrokinesis. It is in no way set in stone and I agree with your analysis there, especially in a Maverick-Heavy meta. The only problem is, even when I had the 2 pyros in the board, I found myself only boarding one in against Maverick. Maybe this spot could be an Anarchy instead.
As for Leyline of Sanctity, it has always felt a little underwhelming, but it is auto-win against burn and I am terrified of Storm combo. I agree that the chalices are better, but I wanted to diversify the hate, I only have 2, and I never know whether to set them on 0 or 1 for storm (probably because I have very little experience against the deck). I do enjoy the Chalice on 0 against hive mind. Chalice on 1 seems okay against RUG too, but I don’t think that’s what I want to be doing in that matchup. Do you think 4 Chalice/2 Thorn is a better split? I don’t even know if Thorns are expensive…I know what they do but I don’t think I’ve ever seen one anywhere except in Legacy sideboards.
I agree with you on surgical in that I think there are probably better options. This was originally 4 Leyline of the Void, but I had some surgicals in a standard sideboard and decided to try them out in legacy, and they worked well for me. I think I’m going to get some Crypts, as the 0 cmc is more appealing to me than the 1-card chomp ability and the extra card. This might be more of a strategy issue, but against dredge I always hit the bridges, not the first dredger. Maybe I’m doing it wrong?
I dont know how long you've been playing but dat list is quite....BAD, sorry bro. If you see all goblins list, you'll see their all a like, thats because their are certain goblin that cant stay off the deck. Exemple: Warchief, needs 4 in every deck. Instigator, 3 is to much, even if you run only mountains. 2 Pyrokinises, thats the minimum. White leyline is just BAD for the deck, i mean REALLY BAD. Kiki mirror...., It's way worse than SGC and if you put it, take 1 SGC out. I think Prospector and sharpshotter should be main.
I dont know if you have money to make a splah with other colors but it would be good. The monored is REALLY REALLY GOOD depending on the Metagame......but when you pick up bad matches, youre done. With the splash you can always over come the match.
Thats my considerations.
Anarchy is often quite the blow out against Mav. It also gives you a misers option in random Enchantress match ups, but that's certainly not a reason to run it.
Chalice at 1 is also an auto win vs. burn. As for Chalice vs. Storm, it really depends. If you're fearing discard, setting it at 0 at least forces them to deal with it before going off. Setting it at 1 is really the sweet spot as it blocks many of their spells and removes Chain of Vapor as a potential out. Chalice at 0 does nothing against Hive Mind. In fact, you're actually helping them out! Hive Mind creates the copy regardless of whether or not the original spell resolves. That copy isn't cast, it's placed directly on the stack, sidestepping your Chalice. A much better card vs. Hive Mind is Thorn of Amethyst. Each of their pacts now costs 1, and all of their cantrips and fast mana are more expensive too. Even Force of Will is no longer free.
As for the cost money wise, last I knew Thorn of Amethyst was something like $1. They're a pretty niche card.
Personally, I run either 4x Chalice or 2x Chalice/2x Thorn as my combo hate if I expect to see Hive Mind (I have a buddy that runs it occasionally in our local meta).
You shouldn't need to hit Bridge as a goblins player. Remember that you can always remove your own goblin with a Gempalm and/or block an Ichorid/Zombie to remove the Bridges. Also, any unpaid echo triggers (War Marshal/Stinger) will remove his bridges, as will sacrificing guys to Skirk Prospector. You'll want to hit things like Ichorid, Dread Return, and whatever target(s) he brings in (probably Iona and/or Elesh Norn). If you find yourself with early extractions, hitting the first dredger on their upkeep can buy you a turn.
Crypt is fine hate vs. dredge as long as you know when to use it. The dredge player will side in Ancient Grudge vs. goblins most often and try to force you into popping it on his terms. So just be aware of that.
So you've never heard of the WInstigator/Chieftan builds (or grammar, apparently)? Both were quite popular in the past (about 10-15 pages back), and can still be put to good use today.
Thanks again, Dav.
Ok man, whatever. Yes ive seen these decks already. There the most aggresive gobbos deck around. If youre going for dat.....I wouldnt put any ports. Ow well.....maybe one. Maybe some fanatics(good meta)(just lovem') and another chieftain. Leyline white still real bad.
I think the old fashioned deck is better....now with cavern, it got really pumped up. mean while....ill be preparing anarchy for the resiliant decks with land tax.
I agree that the white Leylines are terrible.
Well you never know unless you try it. Myself playing aggressive list and ports are fine as long as you don't try to combine them with WInstigator...I can't say I like his list but it might work well, and if not he simly he will rebuild it after some games. After all best kind of gaining experience is by playing.
Ive been trying to play with the calices....but....i really dont know if there that good. Storm is a REAL BIG PROBLEM.....any body tried the P. PILLAR? How is it ?!
thats my doubt,.....the statistics of you opening only 1 red mana source in the first 3 turns. Seems a big deal
I'm going to assume you meant Chalices, and that you're asking about Pyrostatic Pillar. It's mostly an "old school" piece of hate that's quite vulnerable to Chain of Vapor and also makes them need less storm count to actually kill us since the majority of our spells cost less than 3. If I'm going to spend 2 mana on hate, Chalice @ 1 or Thorn of Amethyst are slightly harder to deal with for them, and much less disruptive for us.
seems legit. Ill just consider Storm a bad match and focus my side on other bad matches.
akibidu actually brings up a good point that goes to the heart of my original inquiry. If I'm running a list with heavy red requirements (which, for better or worse, I am), how many colorless lands can I afford to play? 4 Wastes + 2 Ports, with 15 Red sources...is that enough to reliably hit RR by turn 2?
Another thing to consider is that WInstigator is often vialed in at the end of your opponents turn to catch them off guard, which negates the double red.
I realize that Warchiefs and WInstigators are a big non-bo, but both have been very good for me. Sure, Warchief doesn't reduce the castign cost of WI, but he still gives him haste. WInstigator is the single most terrifying card for an opposing player to see on your side of table (OK...maybe Kiki-jiki). It is a removal magnet and a possible game ender, and definitely a personal favorite of mine. Putting aside the validity/correctness of the card, the question is how much mana denial can I run and still be able to relaibly cast it?
Ive already played with this deck list.....for you to not think I was arrogant. I had 4 WInstigators at one time. it and lackey were the reason y I went for goblins (Instigator are cheap =] ), but the Instigators were the same reason I stoped playing with these type of deck.... It didnt win as much as it loses....thats why I think more than 2 or 1 is just taking slots of mogg war marshals....or maybe fanatics.
I think you would play with much more confidence knowing dat youre not gonna draw a port or starting with no red mana source ( even with vials help ).
Well statistics may say so but important is that it works. I play exactly same maindeck (4 waste 3 port 8 fetch 2 taiga and 5 mountain) for about half year and deck and my record just won't allow me to change it. What I'm trying to say here is that sometimes it doesn't have to look good on paper to work well in real.
Yep, training is surely the best way.
GOBBOS PEOPLE, WHATS YOUR OPINION OF ' CHAOS WARP ' SIDEBOARD? IVE BEEN PLAYING IT.....SEEMS OK. SOMEONE WITH SOME EXPERIENCE?! NEED ADVICE!!!!
Actually I was just thinking about it since I expect that people will start play land tax. I dont know whether land tax will be a good card but I m sure that it will see a lot of play (especially in the first period) because people wanna try it out and yes it is a fun card. As a consequence, I guess we will see more enchantments around: land tax probably will fit good in decks with moat/humilty/seismic assault. So I think we have to get ready for it.GOBBOS PEOPLE, WHATS YOUR OPINION OF ' CHAOS WARP ' SIDEBOARD? IVE BEEN PLAYING IT.....SEEMS OK. SOMEONE WITH SOME EXPERIENCE?! NEED ADVICE!!!!
- splashing green. Cavern of souls makes it tricky. I think it is completely fine to splash colors for cards with legs (TSH) since cavern of souls can be 4 extra dual lands. However, would you reliably have access to taiga for nature's claim if you play cavern of souls, wastelands and ports? My mana base is 4 caverns, 7 mana denial and 12 mountains. Giving that I want to keep 4 mountains, I would have only 8 sloths for fetches/taigas. I might be wrong but I think it is too little. what do you guys think?
- anarchy. It is a great card in so many ways but again with cavern of souls and 7 mana denial, can I reliably have access to 2 mountains by turn 4/5?
- chaos wharp. I dont own any so I have never tested them but I m considering buying them. they have such a bad drawback but you can always reliably cast them and they work at instant speed. They can also be boarded in as equipment hate (?) thereby solving with one card the most problematic permanents for goblins: equipments and enchantments.
Thoughts/experiences on this matter? IF the landscape land tax-moat/humilty/seismic assault was going to happen how would you adjust to it in the sideboard considerimg my mana base?
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