[Deck] Reanimator

[GexxX]

Hello Gerry

I loved the idea of the tyrant and because i was never 100% happy with the angel of despair in the MB, so i replaced it.
In some game he was awsome (=clear board after one or two turns!! Love it!!), BUT i had such a hard time beating a Karakas or a Maze of Ith. Sure i can/should counter the KotR to prevent the problematic lands from beeing tutored. but lands can be drawn from the top of the deck (as we know). what to do then? how did you beat these lands?

Would you still play the same creatures? never missed shroud? Or Jin?

Tyrant is a non-legendary Creature. Since I've been testing the Djinn GW is an even better matchup, just because you are racing them. Bounce the biggest Threads (Knights/goyf) and when the recast, do it again. That's basically like timewalking. :)

[Johanovich]

I am wondering why everybody seems to be playing with a manabase of 18 lands nowadays.
I did a small analysis to check how a 18 land deck compares to a 16 land deck.

On a 100 000 simulations:
16 land:
Mulligan information:
Number of lands in start hands:
0 Land(s): 6545 times (6,54%)
1 Land(s): 23420 times (23,42%)
2 Land(s): 32990 times (32,99%)
3 Land(s): 24026 times (24,03%)
4 Land(s): 10256 times (10,26%)
5 Land(s): 2404 times (2,4%)
6 Land(s): 337 times (0,34%)
7 Land(s): 22 times (0,02%)

Number of start hands w/o 1-st drops: 4400 (4,4%)
Number of start hands w/o 1-st and 2-nd drops: 264 (0,26%)

18 land:
Mulligan information:
Number of lands in start hands:
0 Land(s): 4311 times (4,31%)
1 Land(s): 18131 times (18,13%)
2 Land(s): 30953 times (30,95%)
3 Land(s): 27654 times (27,65%)
4 Land(s): 14103 times (14,1%)
5 Land(s): 4108 times (4,11%)
6 Land(s): 672 times (0,67%)
7 Land(s): 65 times (0,07%)

Number of start hands w/o 1-st drops: 4311 (4,31%)
Number of start hands w/o 1-st and 2-nd drops: 391 (0,39%)

Now what I see from this is that you gain next to nothing from those 2 extra lands. Generally speaking, reanimator wants to have one, two or three lands in the starting hand and enablers/fatties, counters or cantrips and reanimate spells as the rest. Hands with four or more lands are usually rubbish.

From the statistics it is clear that you only increase the number of useless hands by adding lands to the deck.

I can understand that you switch 2 lands to sol lands from out of the sideboard to be able to cast show and tell earlier and to be spell pierce/daze resistant, but surely game 1 you don't want to be bricking just because there are to many lands in your hand.

If anyone can enlighten me, please do

[Dzra]

I think that perhaps this is a little bit of a narrow way of looking at things. I think something better would be calculating "Good Hands" "Keepable Hands" and "Unkeepable Hands." Obviously this is somewhat MU dependent, but I think you can make a general rule of thumb.

A way to look at that might be:
A 0-lander is Unkeepable.
A 1-lander without Ponder is Unkeepable.
A 1-lander with Ponder is Keepable.
A 2-lander anything is a Good Hand.
A 3-lander no Ponder/BS is Keepable.
A 3-lander with Ponder or Brainstorm is Good.
A 4-lander no BS is Unkeepable.
A 4-lander with BS is Good if one of the 4 lands is a fetch and Unkeepable without the fetch.
A 5-lander with BS is Keepable if one of the 4 lands is a fetch and Unkeepable without the fetch.

I believe something like this will give you a better idea of how to maximize Good and Keepable Hands better than 1, 2, 3 landers are good; 0, 4, 5, etc landers are bad.

[Johanovich]

I think that perhaps this is a little bit of a narrow way of looking at things. I think something better would be calculating "Good Hands" "Keepable Hands" and "Unkeepable Hands." Obviously this is somewhat MU dependent, but I think you can make a general rule of thumb.

A way to look at that might be:
A 0-lander is Unkeepable.
A 1-lander without Ponder is Unkeepable.
A 1-lander with Ponder is Keepable.
A 2-lander anything is a Good Hand.
A 3-lander no Ponder/BS is Keepable.
A 3-lander with Ponder or Brainstorm is Good.
A 4-lander no BS is Unkeepable.
A 4-lander with BS is Good if one of the 4 lands is a fetch and Unkeepable without the fetch.
A 5-lander with BS is Keepable if one of the 4 lands is a fetch and Unkeepable without the fetch.

I believe something like this will give you a better idea of how to maximize Good and Keepable Hands better than 1, 2, 3 landers are good; 0, 4, 5, etc landers are bad.

I would partly disagree with this, since a hand with entomb/careful study + fattie and 1 land (and a reanimation spell preferably) would definitely stand as keepable with me (especially if the land is a fetch). If you use the study, then by next turn you have seen 3 cards, which should give you a very hight chance of hitting another land in case you have exhume or animate dead.

My point was mostly that last year most lists had 16 or 17 lands and since a few weeks ago everybody started using a manabase with 18 lands. Reanimator is supposed to be a deck that kicks ass while using only a few lands since everything costs 1-2 mana. Therefore you don't want excess lands in order to prevent them getting in the way from winning.

[Sturtzilla]

My point was mostly that last year most lists had 16 or 17 lands and since a few weeks ago everybody started using a manabase with 18 lands. Reanimator is supposed to be a deck that kicks ass while using only a few lands since everything costs 1-2 mana. Therefore you don't want excess lands in order to prevent them getting in the way from winning.

This is an issue that has been tweaked and re-tweaked for years. Unfortunately there is probably no defined, correct answer. At 16 lands you are less likely to draw dead in the mid to late game. At 18 land you are more Daze and Spell Pierce resistant. Hell, about a year ago, I top 16ed a SCG event with only two Brainstorms in my list. I had decided have logging thousands (literally thousands) of sample hands that I would rather have "business" spells than Brainstorms. I am not saying that was a correct choice, but rather that what is good as far as the deck's exact configuration fluctuates with time.

Here is the list:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=39923

[Arsenal]

If you know your opponent has very, very few options to deal with a reanimated fatty, but your facing down a semi-scary board, is Thoughtseizing yourself to get a fatty in the yard ever the right play? Like, if your opponent has a pretty thick army forming, but you know his removal is all blanked, is Thoughtseizing yourself and Exhuming an anti-creature fatty (Sphnix, Elesh, Blazing Archon) the right call?

[JUNI0R]

If you know your opponent has very, very few options to deal with a reanimated fatty, but your facing down a semi-scary board, is Thoughtseizing yourself to get a fatty in the yard ever the right play? Like, if your opponent has a pretty thick army forming, but you know his removal is all blanked, is Thoughtseizing yourself and Exhuming an anti-creature fatty (Sphnix, Elesh, Blazing Archon) the right call?

Of course thoughtseizing yourself is a good line if you have no other options for getting a creature into the yard. Obviously you would rather careful study or entomb but in a pinch hitting yourself with thoughtseize gets the job done. That's one of the benefits of using targeted discard over say duress that only can hit your opponent.

[rxavage]

If you know your opponent has very, very few options to deal with a reanimated fatty, but your facing down a semi-scary board, is Thoughtseizing yourself to get a fatty in the yard ever the right play? Like, if your opponent has a pretty thick army forming, but you know his removal is all blanked, is Thoughtseizing yourself and Exhuming an anti-creature fatty (Sphnix, Elesh, Blazing Archon) the right call?

Thats the whole point of running TS over duress or IoK.

[egosum]

Thats the whole point of running TS over duress or IoK.

This is not the whole point. Thoughtseizing oneself is a corner case scenario (though in desperate situations might be useful), most of times you need seize to clear the way. The whole point is the versatility, since TGZ is the only card that can take both Fow/Thalia (for instance).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[GexxX]

Thoughtseize also hits Scavenging Ooze, Faerie Macabre and thelike. It's versatile and that's what we want in our disruption package. Our Sideboard is pretty tight. I personally do not have a single slot to pack additional disruption against certain Decks. Thoughtseize is just best overall.

[Alsan]

This is an issue that has been tweaked and re-tweaked for years. Unfortunately there is probably no defined, correct answer. At 16 lands you are less likely to draw dead in the mid to late game. At 18 land you are more Daze and Spell Pierce resistant. Hell, about a year ago, I top 16ed a SCG event with only two Brainstorms in my list. I had decided have logging thousands (literally thousands) of sample hands that I would rather have "business" spells than Brainstorms. I am not saying that was a correct choice, but rather that what is good as far as the deck's exact configuration fluctuates with time.

Here is the list:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=39923

This is the point :). I've been playing for years too, and with 16 lands I'm fine. I've been testing submerge in the Flusterstorm slots, and it fits very well, but I hardly dislike the City of traitors plan. I prefer Duress to discard the Spierce.

[rxavage]

This is not the whole point. Thoughtseizing oneself is a corner case scenario (though in desperate situations might be useful), most of times you need seize to clear the way. The whole point is the versatility, since TGZ is the only card that can take both Fow/Thalia (for instance).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

Wait so you're telling me people don't run Thoughtseize because you can disrupt the opponent AND target yourself to bin a fatty?!?!?! Riiight.

[egosum]

No, I'm just saying it s not the whole point, just corner case (talking about seizing oneself). Sorry for the off-topic, I' ll leave it here.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[JDK]

No, I'm just saying it s not the whole point, just corner case (talking about seizing oneself). Sorry for the off-topic, I' ll leave it here.

Don't worry, some people are incapable of reading. ;)

[Darksteel]

So... Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Vendilion Clique out the board in Reanimator?

Not gonna lie, it seems intriguing and completely unexpected, albeit not so much after the GP. Regardless, it does give the deck another plan of action post board. Thoughts?

[DLifshitz]

So... Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Vendilion Clique out the board in Reanimator?

Not gonna lie, it seems intriguing and completely unexpected, albeit not so much after the GP. Regardless, it does give the deck another plan of action post board. Thoughts?

In that case it might be easier on the manabase if you go with Delver of Secrets instead of Jace.

[GexxX]

So... Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Vendilion Clique out the board in Reanimator?

Not gonna lie, it seems intriguing and completely unexpected, albeit not so much after the GP. Regardless, it does give the deck another plan of action post board. Thoughts?

I think it depends on the Matchup. Clearly Delver does not do much against removal-heavy lists. The question is what Jace does best and in my oppinion he's quite good when you have to fight through slow clocks paired with enough graveyard hate to get that plan completely out of your head. Maybe that was what they expected. It also dodges Karakas quite effectively and that's where the Show and Tell plan is ineffective.
I personally did not test that plan to verify my thoughts, but it makes sense considering you're playing more cautious post-board almost controlish sometimes.

regards,

GexxX

[TerribleTim68]

Ok, so I'm bored and you guys seem to be doing a lot of arguing so I'm going to post a tourney report.

I ran this deck at my local Legacy event last night (I think this was the list) -
Enchantments
4 Animate Dead
Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Force of Will
Creatures
1 Angel Of Despair
1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
4 Griselbrand
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
Sorceries
4 Careful Study
1 Exhume
4 Ponder
4 Reanimate
3 Duress
Basic Lands
4 Island
2 Swamp
Lands
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
3 Bloodstained Mire

SB
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Massacre Wurm
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Show And Tell
Enough other "1 of" dudes to make a 15 card SB.

Ok, a few explenations. I don't own any Thoughtseize and can't afford them, so Duress will have to do today. I also only have the 2 Underground Sea so I'm making do.

Ok, here goes!

Round 1 vs Random U/W Thing:
Game 1 - I mull to 4 before finding anything that resembles a keeper, flop around for a while until he eventually beats me down with a Mirran Crusader that I can't do anything about.

Game 2 - I boarded the Iona, Shield of Emeria for one of my other "1 of" dudes and proceeded to go turn 2 Iona, Shield of Emeria on white putting a stop to that crap. Iona, Shield of Emeria gets there easily.

Game 3 - Turn 2 Griselbrand is too much for him to deal with. Turn 3 Iona, Shield of Emeria on white again spells the end.

(1-0)

Round 2 vs Jason playing Elf-Combo:
Game 1 - On the play, I open with fetch and pass. He opens with Forest, Elf and passes. I EoT crack the fetch, Entomb Grizzlebrand. Jason sighs deeply and says "Seems good". I untap, draw and Reanimate. Jason says "Let's just go to the next one."

Game 2 - I board that Massacre Wurm for one of them "1 of"s, the Show And Tells expecting a Leyline and shuffle up. Jason flops around a bit having mulled and still only gotten a 1 lander. He opens with Forest, non-mana Elf. I open with fetch, spend a couple turns sculpting while countering his Glimpse of Nature he desperately needed to get out of his mulligan pickle he was in. Turn 3 Jason has some elves going on when I Show And Tell that Massacre Wurm. It's enough to actually kill him on the spot. Who knew the Wurm was so good against Elves?

(2-0)

Round 3 vs Kevin playing Canadian Threshold:
Game 1 - Let me start by saying I have yet to beat Kevin in a match ever! I may sneak off with a game, but he ALWAYS wins the match. And he ALWAYS plays that deck. He has all the counters when he needs them and I can't do anything but die to a Nimble Mongoose.

Game 2 - Much of the same, only this time I die to a flipped Delver Of Secrets while he counters everything I try to do. Oh, and I had gotten paired down. Yay me!

(2-1)

Round 4 vs Austin playing Pox:
Game 1 - Turn 2 Griselbrand has to be the coolest thing in the world.

Game 2 - Yup, I'm convinced of it, turn 2 Griselbrand is possibly the coolest thing ever invented.

(3-1)

I end up 3rd since 4 of us are tied at 3-1 and my tie-breakers kind of suck for what ever reason. Jason wins it, yea that's right, the Jason playing Elf-Combo, the one I crushed.

Some day I'll figure out how to beat Kevin.

[rxavage]

About time someone else realized how useful Massacre Wurm can be.

[jamis]

Has anyone considered going all-in on Griselbrand and Jin-Gitaxias preboard? I've been messing around with the following list.

4 Griselbrand
4 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur

4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
1 Animate Dead

4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Thoughtseize

4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Island

Postboard, you can take out some Jin-Gitaxiases for creatures that are designed better for whichever match-up you're facing, but the greater redundancy by playing Careful Study and Faithless Looting with 8 draw 7 creatures seems like it may have some merit. Karakas becomes a bigger problem so it still might be better to go -1 Jin-Gitaxias +1 Tidespout Tyrant or even Terastodon, but the general idea is there.