If I was going to fit in maindeck O.Ring and Shackles, I'd probably go -2 Clique, then fill that in with some combo of O. Ring and/or Shackles. But I really, really like Clique. Like, there's almost nothing better than flashing in a Clique eot, grab their best card, then drop Jace (protected by Clique) on my turn. Also, Karakas + Clique softlocks opponents out of the game (ala CounterTop). I crutch pretty hard on Spell Pierce + StP early on due to not having O.Ring and Shackles.Originally Posted by klaus
@Arsenal: Have the 2x Timely Reinforcements in your board been good? Are they better than 2x Path to Exile?
I like them. 6 life + 3 dudes is pretty fricking huge in certain matchups. Tier 2 still exists, so seeing stuff like BW Confidant, Boros, Zoo, Goblins, etc is something I try to be prepared for. I figure that between StP and Terminus, I should have a decent chance of removing my opponent's creatures... but me hovering at 9 life when facing Mountains is something that PtE doesn't really help with. And don't even get me started on my opponent's face when I cast Timely, then Snapcaster it again few turns later.
I may have been very unlucky when testing against Mav, but I feel it's not as easy as I expected and yes I'm playing a full set of terminus md. The timely reinforcements in the board are actually very strong against quick aggro, but since counterbalance helps alot in the burn matchup, timely can be dropped if the board gets tight.
Edit: tested the whole day today again with my test buddy. Mainly against sneakshow and reanimator. Reanimator is hard preboard, easy postboard. Sneakshow is really hard preboard and still hard postboard. I think I'm 20/80 preboard against sneaky show and 40/60 postboard still. I only have 7 cards to board in against sneaky show while I have much more against reanimator. I will change up my board to have more cards against sneakshow because it is really really hard.
Here's what I'll be boarding, going forward:
4 surgical
4 counterbalance
2 disenchant
2 flusterstorm
1 spell pierce
2 Clique
I hope the cliques help against sneakshow, otherwise I'll just have to accept that it's a very hard matchup.
Last edited by ivanpei; 06-24-2012 at 08:11 AM.
you might want to try peacekeeper in the board vs sneak and show. they seem to be decent against them while still dodging the counter suite sneak and show has
Won a local tournament with what I consider the perfect setup for this deck.
Round 1: MUD
Both games I Force of Will his first threat early on, Counterspell the next, then Snapcaster Mage/CS everything that follows. 2 Disenchant from the Board also helped a lot. This matchup is pretty much unwinable for MUD unless I keep I hand without Force and lose to turn3 Sundering Titan. I didn't. MUD just has about 70% topdecks that aren't live while almost any non-land card matters for me.
1-0
Round 2: Nic Fit
Game1: I Swords to Plowshares two Veteran Explorer and Spell Pierce Liliana of the Veil. I have a bit of trouble defending my Jace, the Mind Sculptor against his Treetop Village but eventually Terminus it at eot and follow it up with the Jace TMS. With 6 cards in hand + Top against his 1 card in hand, I start fatesealing him and he concedes.
Game2: This game drags itself out a lot with him Maelstrom Pulseing my 1st Humility but since he boarded out Deeds he had no out to the 2nd one. Still, I can only counter so many Planeswalker and Terminus some of his 1/1s. I ambush his 3/3 Treetop Village with Entreat the Angels but when Garruk, Primal Hunter resolves I slowly die to it.
Game3: Once again, Swords to Plowshares takes out Veteran Explorer leaving both of us stuck at 3 mana. He hits Sensei's Divining Top soon thereafter and starts hitting some lands while I have to Entreat the Angels for 1 to actually kill his 2nd Veteran Explorer and drop Humility on the following turn. He's got Treetop Village once again but I just drop Jace TMS and take out his manland with another Swords to Plowshares. Total control established - time is called and I don't manage to find a second Entreat the Angels for lethal. He doesn't want to concede so we draw.
1-0-1
Round3: Sneak and Show
Game1: He leads with Volcanic Island into Ponder and I put him on Canadian. On his second turn he goes for Ancient Tomb fueling Show and Tell which I Counterspell. He thinks for a bit then puts it into the graveyard which worries me since all I have left is a single Force of Will. I land a Counterbalance but it whiffs when he casts Sneak Attack two turns later. I Force of Will and Spell Pierce but he one-ups me on it as he's also got two Forces. I Karakas his Emrakul, the Aeons Torn once but he's got Lotus Petal for a second activation of Sneak Attack.
Game2: Show and Tell resolves. Humility earns the scoop.
Game3: I keep a hand without any Force of Will on the draw but at least it's got Humility, Counterspell, Sensei's Divining Top, Spell Pierce, Vendilion Clique and Karakas and a Flooded Strand. He missplays pretty hard by playing Island instead of Volcanic Island on the first turn, leaving him unable to cast Blood Moon on his second turn. It still resolves since my Spell Pierce is answered by Pyroblast off Lotus Petal. At this point my board is Tundra and Island but Top allows me to draw into 2 additonal Islands and a Plains. Turns out he kept his hand mainly due to the Moon. When I Vendilion Clique him I see 2 Emrakul, 1 Progenitus and Sneak Attack. He's got 2 Mountains and 1 Island in play so I let him keep it. He topdecks Brainstorm on his next turn which I Counterspell. He's got a two-turn window to draw Show and Tell but doesn't. Clique delivers the necessary beats!
2-0-1
Round 4: Marius Hausmann (wasteland) with UW Miracle
Game1: It's a 73 card mirror with only slight sb tweaks. Ge goes first and passes with just a land. I play Sensei's Divnining Top on turn1. He goes for Counterbalance on turn2 which resolves. On my turn I drop my own copy of it which resolves after a unsuccessful blindflip on his part. The game is pretty much over at this point.
Game2: I take an early lead once again with both of us preventing Counterbalance from hitting play. He misses some land drops and pseudo-Wasteland his Karakas with my own. At one point I'm beating him down with 2 Angels and 1 Snapcaster Mage all the way down to 1 life but he Entreat the Angels for 2 tokens and kills my Mage with Clique. I Counterspell his Elspeth, Knight-Errant but Jace, the Mind Sculptor resolves the turn after. It trades with my own copy of it but he hits another one the turn after while all I have is Counterbalance. I Surgical Extraction his Entreat the Angels which leaves him with just his Jace and 1 Snapcaster Mage left as win condition. He starts fatesealing me with a grip full of Counterspells so I condede.
Game3: This plays out pretty much the same game1 did. When I try to resolve my Counterbalance to match my Sensei's Divining Top in play his CB whiffs and he is forced to Force. I spin Top, find nothing, then crack a Fetchland and eventually find Force of Will three cards down. Draw with Top and Force back pitching Snapcaster Mage. He of course now can't play Top on his turn and passes. On my turn I try to resolve Top once again, he tries for Snapcaster Mage into Counterspell but I blindflip Counterspell (after fetching because i knew my top card wasn't live) to which he concedes.
3-0-1
Round 5: Mono Red Goblins
My teammate is the only one at 4-0 so he concedes to me and we both take first and second place. Good times
This deck is about one of the greatest decks I have every played. Loving it!
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
I took down my own locals yesterday too winning 2-0 vs Dredge, Reanimator, Elves and UR Burn and failing to win vs Doomsday, which was my own misplay (1-2). I cut all splashes and I am on straight UW right now. Which list are you playing Julian? Is it public?
Greetings
So is Humility or Peacekeeper better in the board against Show and Tell?. Either is great because it totally shuts down SNT and is an auto win but Peacekeeper seems definitely better against Sneak Attack because it's faster by a turn. However Humility seems better against GW Mav because Peacekeeper may get removed by STP or Jitte.
Thoughts on which is a better SB card? Also are cliques/disenchant worth running in the board? I run disenchant mainly against Maverick's Chokes, Libraries and Equipment.
Does Mav keep their StP in versus us game 2? In my experience, albeit limited, they typically side that out when they put me on Miracle Control as StPing my Snapcaster seems bad compared to bringing in stuff like Choke.
This has been my experience too.
With that said, Peacekeeper will probably live against Maverick, but requires 2 mana a turn, and doesn't stop their guys from doing things which is a big deal. Humility is definitely better against Mav.
Against Sneak & Show both are valid options, but Humility disallows Griselbrand to search for answers. It will also shut off Cliques if you bring them in though.
Both options are equally susceptible to Wipe Away and that's the biggest problem in the S&S matchup. Aside from floating a 3 drop with a CB in play we can't beat that card.
Cliques have been great against a lot of decks, but I've been toying with some other SB configurations lately which don't have them. Disenchant is very good, too good against a lot of things to cut them. I could see running 1 with 3/4 snapcasters main, but I really think 2 is the correct number for the board.
Gegengewicht, Weissagekreisel - Du bist dran.
Pretty sure cliquing his Sneak was the correct play here, reducing his outs (Ancient Tomb). You had the CS for a potential SnT anyway.
Why didn't you draw, making sure your teammate doesn't end up 3rd/4th due to tie breakers?Round 5: Mono Red Goblins
My teammate is the only one at 4-0 so he concedes to me and we both take first and second place. Good times
Ancient Tomb wasn't an Out. If he draws it, he's only got 4 Mana (it's a Mountain under Blood Moon) and I Counterspell his Sneak Attack anyways. However, if I Clique away his Sneak Attack, he can draw Show and Tell which I can't Counterspell that turn.
Drawing would put me in 4th place at best, more likely 5th place. There were 2 matches of people at 9 points going on and one guy playing at 8th points. By conceding to me, we ensured that he would be 4th at worst, but very likely 2nd after all.
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
Julian, is your list posted somewhere? Also, what did you expect in the format when you built your sideboard?
I'm more inclined to think that Peacekeeper is better against Mav because it can come down under a thalia/teeq. It's much easier to cast against their disruption. Also once it's in play, they can't kill us so we can stockpile a bunch of stps/Snapcasters and kill their moms/teeq and drop jace FTW.
Against sneak show humility is good against show and tell but probably useless against sneakattack because it's too mana intensive. Also once the jigg is up, game 3 will see wipeaway coming in. Even with just one, they can dig a ton with griselbrand on the board and find it eventually.
I don't think either humility or peacekeepers is great in the sneakshow matchup. Sure it might get you one lucky win in g2 if he walks into it but it'll unlikely be useful g3. I think the slots could be better as cliques and disenchants. I feel disenchants are still extremely useful against sneakshow. Mainly because during the combo turn, they'll be tapped out casting pyroblasts and spellpierces. When they pass the turn, you can blow it up with disenchant.
I think generally winging it without peacekeeper/humility might be better. As in g3 plows are coming in for the peacekeepers while thalias and teeq will make humility hard to cast. Choke also makes it an embarrassing way to lose peacekeeper.
SCG Detroit tournament report: 13th
Tournament reports are stupid, and generally of little to no value. Especially poorly proofread ones, like this one. Especially when the player didn't take any notes, like me. I did manage to pull off a neat trick or two in this, however.
Round 1: Cheerios
The guy wasn't playing a real deck. I was. 1-0
Round 2: Elves
Pretty standard elves! deck; glimpses, mana guys, GSZ, etc. I resolve a Terminus or two, then plop down Counterbalance and Top. My board was -2 Spell Pierce, -1 Vedalken Shackles, -1 Counterspell, +2 Humility, +1 EE, +1 E. Tutor.
In between games I called a judge for the oracle text on Choke, so that I could gauge my opponent's reaction; from this, I determined that he did not have them.
2-0
Round 3: BUG Tempo / Team America
At first I think he's on storm, because he flipped a card over while shuffling that I thought was a Dark Ritual. In retrospect it was more likely a Hymn (which he never casts). All of his guys eat Swords to Plowshares, and he just can't deal with the advantage I'm getting from playing Tops and Counterbalances. I do recall at some point he casts a Pernicious Deed; my first instinct was to snap Force it (pitching Jace), but then I realize that Deed is much less effective against my deck than it was against me when I was on CounterTop Stoneforge or Supreme Blue.
3-0
Round 4: Eventual top 8'er Christoffer Anderson
This one went much like round 2, although Christoffer managed to grab a game from me. The basic plan is you try not to telegraph Terminus too hard, while also using your counters or Swords to Plowshares to stop them from killing you out of nowhere. At some point in game three he decides to attack me with a bunch of guys, for about ten damage. This was the right play, as he can't afford to just do nothing, but he likely should have kept the Priest of Titania back, as I flip top into three angels. A couple blocks later and I'm presenting too much of a flying clock for him to recover.
4-0
Round 5: RUG without Mongeese
Game one he leads off with Goblin Guide, which proceeds to ship me two lands unaided. I cast Ambush Viper to block it at some point, but he Dazes it. This then allows me to drop Vedalken Shackles on turn 3, and he can never really come back.
Game 2 I keep a hand with StP and Spell Pierce, but questionable mana. He has double Delver with a brainstorm to flip them, and I die.
Game 3 I am able to answer all of his threats...except Sulfuric Vortex, which proceeds to eight me. There was a hugely important play where he Dazes my hard-case Terminus, forcing me to crack my fetchland in order to pay. This point of damage is what caused me to die on my upkeep, instead of killing him with hastey angels in my combat phase.
Something interesting I learned: Apparently, if you are resolving Brainstorm, the moment you set two cards on top of your library, regardless of whether or not you've finished resolving the spell, you cannot undo those choices. I appealed this ruling, but to no avail. Had this not been the case, I would have won the match, and this would be a report of my triumph in Detroit. Then, immediately afterward, my opponent cracked a fetchland, put a land into play, then put that land back and chose a different one. I remarked that this was the same thing I had just been told I cannot do, but the judge sitting at the table did not seem to care. Had the ruling that applied to Brainstorm applied here, I would also have won that match.
4-1
Round 6: Feature match against Ari Lax.
Coverage here: http://starcitygames.com/events/cove..._ari_lax_.html
Some notes: Me and Ari play at the same weekly Legacy tournament, although he's often just running modo in the corner, being obnoxious.
In game 1, I declined to reveal off Counterbalance a few times because I did not want to give Ari the information (which I didn't have) until it was no longer valuable to conceal it. Eventually I brainstormed, picking up the Force of Will. This is when I put Vedalken Shackles second from the top, so that it would later be revealed. The point here is to sell Ari on the coast being clear, as he can't realistically wait too long or I'll find a Top.
In game two, Glenn Jones failed to note that I Forced the Infernal Tutor, leaving Ari hellbent. Later, when Ari Tendrils'd me for six copies, I had put him on Tendrils, and that's why I did not cast my Spell Pierces—the additional storm would have killed me.
Storm can be pretty rough when you have no clock.
5-1
Round 7: Show and Tell
I had seen several RUG decks around the top tables, so I went into the match with my opponent on that. I kept a six that was something along the lines of Island, fetch, Wasteland, StP, StP, Counterbalance– a rather decent hand against Delver.
Except she wasn't playing Delver.
After she dropped her second basic Island, the jig was up and I had to do something, so I dropped my Counterbalance and hoped to get there. Luckily she kept a slower hand, so over the next two turns I made land drops and manage to mise a Spell Pierce and a Snapcaster Mage. However, she also dropped a Lotus Petal and a City of Traitors, making my Spell Pierce more or less moot.
At the end of my turn 4, she Intuitioned for Force of Will. She then cast Sneak Attack with 2 red mana up. In response to my Counterbalance trigger, I Spell Pierced, which she Forced. See, I had been stockpiling fetch lands, so I got to crack and flip again, once again seeing nothing. Still in response, I Snapcastered then tried to flashback Spell Pierce, which she Dazed. I then made my final flip, getting...ELSPETH. Sure, it did nothing to save my Spell Pierce, but I the original trigger for her Sneak Attack was still on the stack.
In game two, I had the god opener of 2x lands, Karakas, Brainstorm, Force, Spell Pierce, Humility. To make a long story short, I eventually allowed her to resolve a Show and Tell when I had backup for bounce spells on the Humility I put into play. She put down Sneak Attack, then proceeded to make an Emrakul anyway, despite it being both a 1/1 with no abilities and me having Karakas.
My advice to would-be Legacy tournament players is to make sure you understand common interactions your opponents' cards will have with your deck. Humility is one thing (I guess), but nearly everyone is packing Karakas. She did not seem to understand that I could bounce Emrakul before her Declare Attackers step.
6-1
Round 8: Caleb Durward with Elves
Oh what a mess this was.
In game one, I was building to a Terminus on his turn. Like an idiot, I cast Brainstorm on his turn in response to Regal Force, then very nearly tapped my top to cast it—despite my already having drawn cards that turn. I sighed, let him draw 4 cards, then activated my top, in order to actually correctly cast Terminus as an instant on his _next_ turn. I put Terminus second from the top.
And then I drew Terminus. Just imagine my surprise. I still have no idea how it happened. I mean, obviously I did it, but, like, HOW? I was so surprised that I put it in my hand instead of casting it. And then he killed me.
Game 2 I mulled to four. I managed to mise a Terminus, but like three of the four creatures he had were Elvish Visionary, so that did not amount to much. I next succeeded in resolving Counterbalance Top (I had to put the top on top). However, he had enough mana to find a Qasali Pridemage and blow it up. I looked around a bit more for another Terminus, but never found it.
6-2
Last edited by Malakai; 06-25-2012 at 01:17 PM. Reason: Fixed reporting error in round 7 (now bolded)
I noticed your build ran 3 Wasteland (something I brought up a couple pages back). Your thoughts on it's inclusion?
Bummer on the Brainstorm ruling. Did fatigue take a toll? This is a tough deck to play through a tournament with greater than 5 rounds - lots of decisions, lots of long games. Fatigue, at least for me, definitely becomes a factor.
With Humility out Griss cant draw to find Wipe Away
Julian, are you Carsten Kotter? If so, please don't write about UW Miracles in your next SCG article, or else everyone will play it. I really enjoyed the Doomsday article.
Will you post your decklist? I'm the third person to ask. It's a little unfair to say you have "the perfect setup" and then not share your list
Agreed, I was referring to peacekeeper, forgot to clarify. So are most people running wastes or factories? I'm Playing a full set of factories as I find that I want to have max mana available for entreat/jace. Also, factories along with snapcaster makes a decent clock which has been extremely relevant from testing. Trading with an otherwise hard to kill mongoose/ holding off weenies has been invaluable.
Wastes are better in the combo matchup though, but I've since surrendered my g1 combo matchup. Another hard decision is on running a 3rd counterspell or the 4th snapcaster. The snapcaster feels great against aggro/aggro control but the 3rd counterspell is of course better vs combo. I currently feel 3 snaps are enough as gas hasn't been an issue yet.
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