yeah, maybe we are both wrong. Maybe we don't need PTE, either. Thalia and Port already induce people to put more lands into play and that ought to be enough. Testing will tell.Originally Posted by GrdiVrag
Sorry, but I don't. It seems awful, like playing Goblin Guide with Stifle.
I'm curious to see the results of your testing, let's hope you'll find a way to make it work.
Am I missing something or is this deck just pure awesomeness right now?
I am toying around with a list (below) for quite some time now and I am truly impressed by the decks powerlevel and think it is one of the most powerful, while underplayed, decks that exist. Honest.
Here is what I ended up with, the sideboard isn't 100% perfect (even if I think it's great) and I didn't took a closer look at how much Cavern of Souls I do want for the deck. Besides that, I can only see myself cutting an equipment for card X/Y.
10 Plains
1 Snow-covered Plains
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
4 Mother of Runes
3 Weathered Wayfarer
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Serra Avenger
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 SoFI
1 SoFF
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 StP
Sideboard:
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Absolute Law
1 Aura of Silence
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Nevermore
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Wing Shards
In response...Hypothek!
Batterskull is reallllly bad in this deck. It doesn't help achieve the goals well and can get stranded. Even worse is playing 2 copies. Kitchen Finks is also questionable, but we can replace that with O-rings which allow for more tricks and more removal against unfair decks (like Show & Tell), as well as answers to Planeswalkers from control.
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I have to admit that Finks is not as great as it was pre Terminus, but I still like what it does for the deck. Blocking Mongeese/buying time in general and giving the deck more chances to gain life and hit with equipments is still enough to keep it in IMO. Playing lesser creatures (in the CC3 slot, also) is something I am not convinced of right now.
Batterskull seems awful, but I have felt that it is somewhat necessary to negate different angles of attack from controllish decks and I moved it from the sideboard (where it stood for quite some time) to the maindeck and was pleased with it the majority of games. Batterskull is an awkward draw in many games and searching for it is something that can backfire pretty easy, but it's not like the decks plan is to cast SFM into Batterskull.
Both Batterskull and Finks are awesome against Threshold since they need to invest tons of resources to deal with the greater part of your deck and both cards seal the deal quite often. Flickering (or simply having) a Batterskull is huge against Pernicious Deed and Board-Sweepers and can own the heck outta Dredge sometimes.
I think the card gives the deck more variance, but mostly it is a good one in my experience.
I had a single Oblivion Ring in the maindeck, then moved it to the board. A well-timed Flickerwisp (which is a beast in this deck) and Mangara are still pretty good at doing that job and are not affected by Thalia (like the Elspeth I've cut from the md) and I rather have more creatures in most MU's right now.
Regarding Planeswalkers:
I am not that afraid of those (If they manage to get Jace on an empty board or with 1 creature is basically game against each deck anyway. Decks that pack Liliana are not that impressive in general. Garruk Relentless is a good one though.) and Revoker can still answer those rather efficient, if necessary.
Serra Avenger, while beeing great at carrying all these Forks, hasn't convinced me 100% yet, I like it as that typical situtational card a lot though. I still got the impression that the durability of Finks give them the nod over Serra right now.
Leonin Relic-Warder and Fiend Hunter are not unplayable and if someone doesn't feel like playing Finks (which is 100% fine and propably a better choice, depending on what you expect) I would think of these, especially Warder for the games where your Vial gets Pierced and Counterbalance steps in to wreck the party. Oblivion Ring is the better answer in general, but the body is more important in this deck IMO.
In response...Hypothek!
I've been a reader and observer of this deck and this thread for as long as I've been around The Source, but I'm finally now putting together a Death & Taxes deck for some local tournaments. Much obliged to anyone who can offer their expertise or advice:
Main Deck
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Flickerwisp
3 Grand Abolisher
2 Leonin Shikari
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 True Believer
4 AEther Vial
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Karakas
2 Mistveil Plains
17 Plains
2 Wasteland
Sideboard
1 Aura of Silence
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Weathered Wayfarer
Some explanations:
- I'd play more than two Wasteland if I owned more than two.
- I like both Grand Abolisher and True Believer a lot in theory, but I sort of expect others here to advise against playing them. But it does seem like they're potentially very disruptive to the majority of competitive Legacy decks in my meta. But maybe True Believer belongs in the sideboard.
- Leonin Shikari also seems good, but I don't have the experience to see how it performs.
- Why is Weathered Wayfarer in the sideboard? Perhaps it belongs in the main. But I envision it most as a way to find a Karakas when I need it against Reanimator or Sneak/Show, thus its presence in the side.
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After reading this thread for a long time I decided to play D&T today at a small tournament. 14 people showed up and I came in second (could have one though, later on that) I got pretty lucky as many games involved 3 Wasteland/Port.
Small report:
Round 1 Esper Control/Aggro
Game 1 I can't handle his 1st turn Delver and die to it
Game 2 goes on forever, lots of creatures die, but I revoker Batterskull (which he hardcast) of Vial and draw my one Batterskull which I hardcast too. I can equip my Germ with a SoFI and take over from there. He throws Chumpblockers in front of me (Lingering Souls Tokens, more Delver, Mystics) and I go up to >50 before he dies.
Game 3 is a draw as neither of us wins in 3 mins + 5 turns
Round 2 Reanimate
Game 1 he starts with land go. I go Plains->Vial, EOT he entombs Iona (the guy was sittning next to me the prior round). Animate dead brings her back and he names white, which makes me a sad panda, but I go on playing. I land through Vial a Mom, Stoneforge (SoLaS) and Thalia. He stops attacking when I'm on 8, because he might have forgotten that Iona flies... And I win from there :)
Game 2 he doesn't find a reanimate target and I vial in Mom, Thalia, waste and port him and have the Grunt when he puts a Elesh in his gy.
Round 3 lifegain homebrew
Game 1 I beat him hard and have no idea what his deck does, double Mom made his Pacifism enchantment that gains him life a blank.
Game 2 he drops an Ajani's Pridemate, pacifies my Serra Angel and that thing groes to 8/8. I chump him a couple of turns with Thalia+Karakas and eventually find Jitte. Deal damage with Thalia, bounce her, wisp his Pridemate and kill it EOT with Jitte. I slowly start taking over after that as I now can handle all his other creatures.
Round 4 Maverick
Game 1 he keeps a hand with Savannah + Cradle and never draws another Manasource/1-drop
Game 2 I tripple Waste him, then put down a vial. He's mana screwed and I think I have this game. He then plays a Hierarch, I port his Savannah next turn and resp he casts Scryb. With cradle he quickly puts down 2 Knights, Kitchen Finks, BoP and I start picking his permanents apart with Mangara + Karakas. The Scryb gets chumped by a Flickerwisp and he casts a new one. Sylvan Library gets eaten too, but he then takes out my Karakas and Mangara has to go. Luckily I topdeck another one and win soon after as again he's out of Mana.
T4 Enchantress
Game 1 I slow him down with Thalia but he wins it easily at 7 life (loads of flying angels)
Game 2 I start with Vial, he starts with Enchantress of Chrome Mox. I waste his land, vial mom, cast Thorn of Amethyst, port his land, Revoker his mox and beat him slowly down as he never gets more than 2 Mana.
Game 3 I waste his first 2 lands, but am stranded on Plains there after. Double Mom beats start and he fails to draw another land and when Thalia is joined by a third Wasteland he concedes.
Final UW Miracle
Game 1 I start with Mom, revoker top and proceed to draw 2 Wasteland and 3 Port and win somewhere after. I keep a revoker and Mystic in hand as I'm afraid of Terminus
Game 2 he starts with top and I am really slow. At one point he miracles Terminus for a 2:1 and I lose somewhere after to double Mishra's Factory + Vendilion Clique
Game 3 I start and can Revoker Top soon. Revoker dies after he casts SCM on Disenchant, killing SoFI and then blocking my 4/3 (due to SoLaS) with Factory. I get Mangara + Karakas online, but only get Jace as he Miracle's Terminus to get rid of my Flickerwisp and Mangara. I get a Revoker down again on Top with a Mom to protect him. I get him down to 1 when I make a misplay. I eot bounce his Clique, untap and attack, let him block my Revoker (silly me) and bounce Clique just then... Next turn I lose to 2 4/4 Angel tokens.
The list:
10 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Jötun Grunt
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Flickerwisp
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB:
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Disenchant
1 Batterskull
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Serenity
1 Etherworn Canonist
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Stony Silence
The SB Batterskull was only used against Esper, otherwise I really liked the board. Maybe -1 Tutor +1 something
The main was great, but multiple Karakas kinda annoyed me so I might cut one there.
Multiple Karakas is occasionally a problem, but not in the same zip code as the mana problems you will be dishing out. Actually, from your report you certainly know that. The point is that power has its price. Decide for yourself, but with both Mangara and Thalia in there, it is as important as ever. I still can't see cutting one with 23 lands, especially considering Vials too.
Berkowl, True Believer was commonly used way back in the day before Wizards was into printing truly impressive white disruption creatures, but even then it was mostly regarded as filler. Honestly, even the applications for which it seems like it should be good, it is pretty weak. In most cases, if the front line of attack is working, you won't even need it against any of the top like 100 decks or so. Really only a mono-black deck with heavy discard and light spot removal would have trouble with it (Gatekeeper of Malakir is actually hilarious if the opponent does not realize what will happen). But, I can't remember the last time I saw a Gatekeeper.
Abolisher is a bit better, but frankly there is only one counterspell deck in the format you should fear - Sneak Attack. There are probably dozens of other applications for this guy, but really what are you going to cut for him? There really aren't any weak cards. Since Thalia, there is not enough room in the main for all the strong cards as it is. Just look at the lists with all the 3-ofs. Do you really think Serra Avenger is too weak to be a 4-of in a deck with Mystics? Insectile Aberrations abound, and still we are going to 3. It's tight in there. Do yourself a favor and stick to what definitely works unless you know you have a small, strange meta.
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Played to 4-0 at Monday Legacy.
4x Karakas
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port
10x Plains
4x Mom
4x Stoneforge
4x Serra Avenger
3x Jotun Grunt
3x Thalia
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara
4x Swords
4x Vial
1x Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
SIDEBOARD
4x Enlightened Tutor
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Stony Silence
1x Pithing Needle
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x COP: Red
Round 1: Mono Red
Game one, guy mulligans to six, I keep. He Lava Spikes, I Vial; he Flame Rifts, I Thalia; he Firesblasts Thalia and Spikes me; I Mystic for Jitte; he plays Lavamancer, I vial in Jitte; get there eventually with Jitte and Serra Avenger from Vial.
BOARD: -3 Mangara, -2 Flickerwisp, +3 Enlightened Tutor, +1 COP: Red, +1 Amethyst
Naturally COP: Red on turn two, GG bro.
Round 2: TES
Game one, guy mulligans to six, me on play. I Vial turn one; he Probes paying two, seeing Thalia, Flickerwisp, Serra Avenger, Mystic, and Plains. He Brainstorms, and plays Petal. He Silences me on Upkeep, I draw Waste and take out his Underground Sea. Eventually I get Thalia and Mystic out, and win on the back of Jitte.
BOARD: -3 Mangara, -4 Swords, -1 Flickerwisp, -1 LaS +4 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Ethersworn, +1 Thorn of Amethyst, +1 Stony Silence, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Revoker.
Hatebears come out (Thalia, Canonist, Thorn by the end of turn 3), about to swing for lethal with SoFaI, he has to Shattering Spree through the hate, cracking a LED and leaving his board clear. Eventually Ad Nausuems at 6 life, hits Inquisition/Inquisition/Thoughtsezie/BWish, with his only land a City of Brass, loses.
Round 3: Reanimator:
Game one: Me on the play, I keep a Mom-less, Karakas-less 7 (had no clue what he was on). He passes, discarding Griselbrand, Reanimates on turn 2, that's all she wrote.
BOARD: -3 Mangara, -2 Flickerwisps, -1 SoFaI, -3 Mystic, +4 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Tormod's Crypt, +1 Wheel of Sun and Moon, +1 Ensnaring Bridge, +1 Metamorph, +1 O-Ring
Game 2: Had 2 Revokers on Griselbrand, he Show and Tells Elesh in, I drop Karakas, Enlightened for Ensnaring Bridge (w/other hate in hand),drop Jotun Grunt off of Vial as he has like 8 million useless cards in his graveyard.
Game 3: Land Wheel on turn 2 after he Forces Crypt. Eventually he reanimates a Thalia from my grave, I vial Flickerwisp end of turn, he scoops.
Round 4: Esper Stoneblade
Can't remember much about this one, but I win game one after he mulls to 4 keeping a Mutavault lander and I waste it. He wins game two on the back of a Batterskull and my inability to do combat math. I win game three after a long, but drawn out battle, sealing it with Mangara lock exiling an inactive Jitte and swinging for lethal with Serra Avenger and SoFaI.
I made some bad erros at random points (namely game 2 round 4), and while I don't think i drew exceptionally, I feel my opponents were on the rough end of variance. That said, I really like the deck's matchup against Reanimator post-board, and feel that with a good draw, post-board combo is very winnable. Stoneblade feels like a good matchup, and Mono-red is a crapshoot pre-board, but better post.
"Vial" as a verb to describe SFM's ability too?
Anyway, I was at this event too, playing Deadguy Ale. I didn't play you, but I did play a Vial-less version of Death & Taxes in Round 4 and got blown out. I also lost to your Round 4 opponent.
Your deck looks real solid. Just wondering: Have you thought much about Aven Mindcensor? It wreaks havoc on so much in Legacy, though you probably have good reasons for the creatures you run over it.
Yeah, realized its more confusing given that the deck actually has Vials. Mindcensor seems very solid against many decks, and I honestly haven't done a whole ton of testing with the deck, but in theorizing, the main deck creatures have better general utility; Mangara is great against Stoneblade decks, and Flickerwisp (what I would say is the most arguable of cards) saved my ass many times with Vial on 3. I went full out with the Enlightened Tutor sideboard, but a couple of Mindcensors might be better.
I saw the other mono-white deck, and it was a little different (don't know how I feel about Ancient Tombs), but in watching the guy play, its clear he had a ton of experience, and could probably outplay me with the same deck.
I'm definitely a newb when it comes to playing the format, but the results were very encouraging.
@Quantum: I'm not a DnT player, but that list looks very smooth. I play goblins, and I can imagine that list being a real pain in the ass to play against.
Its largely stock, but I think that the mix of creatures is really, really streamlined, and play style can be effectively shifted against almost any deck shy of glass cannon combos (the deck folds to Belcher/Spanish Inquisition) or Spiral Tide. I'm expecting to see a lot of Stoneblade and RUG Delver, and the deck seems to function pretty well against blue creature decks.
The effectiveness of the Enlightened Tutor package is impressive; so many silver bullets available that it really comes down to how well you know the meta.
@Quantum: I run a similar list, with +1 plains/port and -1 Revoker/Avenger, with two revokers in the side. Is there a reason for the lessened manabase, or is it purely economic?
Further, what do you think about Oust/PtE in the side as additional removal? I'm trying to formulate a SB for GP Atlanta.
Won a small tourney in local shop again in last weekend with D&T. 13 players and i win against RUG delver, Maverik, TES and the gate.
I play 2 PtE in my sb and they are good in games where you cant cut of color (Basically mono colored creature decks) or opponent isn't playing any basic lands (RUG,TA).
Also i play this deck like controll for 4/5 first turns and then switch to agro mode if possible. Then you got maybe vial ticked in 2/3 counters and got possibility to play avenger or play+equip sword in same turn
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Hi there. I'm playing a classic list, but with 2 Gut Shot md, cause of the meta.
I'm having a lot of problems fighting threshold. The goal, there, is basically to throw in a running SoFI, I believe, but otherwise, can't really manage to win the game. Any advices?
Primer is well done and updated often.
I got nothing to add. Grunt is good, mana denial is good, all swords are good (It doesent have to be SoFI, SoLS bringing blokkers back and gaining life is really good too in this match)
Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one
I traded for the 4th Port following the tourney; was just card availability for me. I feel like 23 lands would be a little much... nothing in the deck costs more than 3, and in my limited experience, I rarely find myself even wanting to hard cast Flickerwisp or Mangara. I can see running 10 plains along with the 12 non-basics (to ensure a white source in the opener), but even then I don't know; I'd rather have the Avenger. 3 Revokers might be too many.
My sideboard was purely silver bullets; I honestly think I want SoFaF over one of the enchantments, and Cursed Totem over the Revoker in the side. I think a Path or two would be really good for the RUG matchup especially (as its most often strictly better than Plow against them).
Agree with you completely; Wasteland and Port are gold, and Thalia is awesome against them.
Hey fellas. I see that there is some new blood bringing new ideas. Wonderful. Let me give you some info to help you all along.
23 lands are what I play with the expectation that my opponents will be keen on (and capable of) not letting me have an active Vial. If you are in an undeveloped meta, playing against opponents who are unfamiliar with the deck, or simply not seeing much counter magic or removal for the Vial, go on down to 22. I would probably cut a Wasteland or a Port for the subtraction. 21 lands is playing with fire. You will get burned eventually.
Delvers have made the Threshold/RUG matchup not as good as it once was, but it is still pretty good for us. Any game that you can handle their first offering you will probably win. Your side boarding strategy should reflect that. I like Oust a lot here, though if you can be certain that they have no basics, PTE is surely better. I am never willing to have PTE in my side board though because Oust comes in against a wide variety of opponents while PTE is sharply limited, as it directly impedes the deck's strategy if the opponent can fetch even one basic from it.
Quantum's words about Flickereisp are right on. Confident, tournament-savvy players who have picked up D&T almost often cut Flickerwisps in favor of their favorite replacement. They were all wrong, probably did poorly as a direct result, and did not stick it out long enough to see their mistake. In addition to all the other things Flickerwisp does, it gives the deck quasi-removal for any random permanents. This takes pressure off the rest of the deck (especially the side board), allowing players to execute their plan A (disruption and incremental board control) with impunity, assured with the knowledge that they always have Flickerwisps to bail them out. It's a powerful position to be in.
Most players have opted against Mindcensors because it is a turn too slow and because there really is nothing to cut for it.
I do not update this OP as often as the one on Salvation. That one can be counted on to have up-to-date info and analysis.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
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