The OG post is 4+ years old, I hope people see that when they open the thread and fast forward to the last 20 or so pages, but I can understand the want for it.Originally Posted by MTG Junkie
Even though it isn't fully up-to-date either, I still find Ari Lax's Storm Primer to be one of the best articles about storm as it gives great insight into the fundamentals of playing the deck (and even combo in general); something most primers omit.
Liam's TNT primer may be a little bit better with the way the current lists are built (BW). I'll link in the morning. but agreed otherwise.
Looks like all those list choose preordain over ponder so the SDTs actually occupy the place of preordain in more mainstream lists. Still new to this archtype but thats my impression.salvor
I saw that a lot of builds run some number (two) SDT and don't run ponder. Why? I can't get it. Can anybody clarify?
Ive been running 1-2 tops over preordain and I love their ability to grind when needed. Sure they can be mana intensive early but I often have mana for EoT activation without expending cantrips and they will usually draw FoW turn zero. They are sick for desperation digs in conjunction with fetches and cantrips plus I like the way they can make hands keepable that would otherwise be questionable if top was a preordain instead.
Edit- im playing with burning wish with PiF side and main. Do I really need to put an IT in the board? This has been my design but since Im waiting on the 4th BW to arrive I havent put the 4th IT in the board and so far I havent really missed the option, probably due to PiF in the board.
When I played at Mythic Games I never wished for Past in Flames,I always wished forGrim Tutor.
You always want/need a Tutor when trying to complete the Past in Flames loop,so I maxed out on Tutors with 4 Infernal Tutors main and 1 Grim Tutor side.
I understand every body can't get Grim Tutors, hell I barrowed the one I used.
That being said 4 Burning Wish,3 Infernal Tutor main and 1 Infernal Tutor side is the next best thing.
I would keep the Tutor in your board and cut th e Past in Flames for something else useful.
Wasn't a bad read,I alredy know all that stuff though.
When I was reading the thread primer I guess I was looking to see if there was anything I overlooked.
There wasn't lol,there was just a bunch of outdated info.
This makes sense and was my original intent since theres no way in hell im paying 150 for a card like grim tutor. I think PiF side is still good though because if I do have a tutor in my grave then it reduces the cost of the PiF 'loop'.When I played at Mythic Games I never wished for Past in Flames,I always wished for Grim Tutor.
You always want/need a Tutor when trying to complete the Past in Flames loop,so I maxed out on Tutors with 4 Infernal Tutors main and 1 Grim Tutor side.
I understand every body can't get Grim Tutors, hell I barrowed the one I used.
That being said 4 Burning Wish,3 Infernal Tutor main and 1 Infernal Tutor side is the next best thing.
I would keep the Tutor in your board and cut th e Past in Flames for something else useful.
Off topic im trying to figure out when to search for anti-hate. Specifically maverick since they run soo many hate bears. Basically ive been trying not to panic when things like teeg hit the board but start to worry when thalias and ethersworn cannonists or mindcensors hit. So what is the point when I hit the panic button and switch plans to deal with these guys?
@mtg junkie, not a good choice BW into Grim into Pif loop is really mana hungry, better Grim main IT side, BW into IT into PiF = Grim into Pif loop... Grim side is legitimate choice, but feels clumsy
Wishing for Grim Tutor is a back up plan,that's why I play 1 in the side.
I play 4 I.T. main to keep it fast and consistent.
If you try to go for the loop all in one turn it obviously cost more mana. Witch is not that hard seeing how that's what the deck does,make mana.
Wishing for it the turn before you go off is also a good idea.
You are entitled to your opinion and that's fine.
If it doesn't work for you that's fine to.
I'm not telling people what to do. I'm saying what works for me.
With that be said,don't tell me its not a good choice.
ThomasDowd- I saw your list on Starcity,congrates on comming in 46th.
I hope there will be a report!
Moving the next two days, will do when I get some time.
List for reference:
Artifacts
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
Instants
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
Sorceries
4 Burning Wish
4 Duress
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Thoughtseize
Basic Lands
2 Island
1 Swamp
Lands
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
Sideboard:
1 Chrome Mox
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
2 Extirpate
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Meltdown
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize
1 Virtue's Ruin
Edit: quick summary, also not much to report, matches were relatively straight forward
R1 UB infect w shoal W 2-0
R2 Elves W 1-0(opp had deck reg error)
R3 Affinty L 1-2
R4 Maverick W 2-0
R5 Pox W 2-0
R6 Reanimator L 0-2
R7 Dredge L 0-2
R8 Elves W 2-0
Matches of note
R2 elves opponent did not play a land for the first three turns of the game i leisurely killed him.
R3 opp had canonist main as i was greeted with on turn one after losing the die roll, also I boarded out discard and he had traps(x2) in G3(oops) after I dealt with 2 canonists.
R5 opp did not play chalice on zero in G2, i played petal and proceed to AN and kill him on turn one via petal, Drit, Crit, IT,LED
R6 i will probably come back to this one later, but i got mised out pretty bad but the matchup is miserable as is
R7 i got a game loss when i resolved extirpate because in poor instincts i accidentally combined his grave yard and library when I resolved the second one, regardless I was probably not winning that one anyway, down a game he had approx 15 cards left in his library and was going to destroy my hand the next turn
Overall I played against a bunch of random decks, so I crushed them, I only ever had to deal with hate bears on the day most of the time. I will come back to R6 some other day but it was an interesting matchup also against a friend, that I felt kind of in it, but he ripped some good 'uns.
PiF is absurd, I still need to make some tweaks overall, but liked my general construction of the deck, the sideboard probably needs the most work. I probably made a few misplays on the day that could have been more streamlined, but got there anyway, my losses felt like I wasn't going to win those ones anyway (a very good dredge player, a hateful affinity player and a pretty miserable re animator match up, Iona in G1 (off a careful study, must be nice), and in G2(off a top decked entomb after we had a discard punching session))
Wish I would have had the chance to play against more blue decks, I actually feel really good in those match ups with PiF and discard, and oddly enough feel more comfortable fighting that and their random grave hate, than anti combo hate from the other decks.
On the day I wished for IT at least 3 times, probably more, to get the PiF engine online. Never wished for Virtue's ruin, or Meltdown, used every other card other than those though, and I would not cut ruin, meltdown I could see, but as a friend put it before the tournament, "if you ever need to wish for it and it's not there you will hate yourself" and on that note I cut the third extripate I was going to play for it, still dont know if it was correct or not, since graveyard decks seem a lot more popular than mud or chalice decks, probably a meta call.
Edit 2: I had 3 AN kills, 1 goblins and the rest of the wins were with PiF(6).
Last edited by ThomasDowd; 07-02-2012 at 01:09 PM.
I find myself wondering how many times you wished for Past in Flames.
I never wished for it at Mythic Games and I never wish for it at weekly events.
I ended up cutting it for a 2nd Empty the Warrens.
Not sure if it is the best use for that slot yet, but time will tell.
I like PiF in the board but I've actually gone from 2 EtW to 1. Does this mean you're are boarding one in and leaving one effectively giving you 8 copies?
Also congrats ThomasDowd! Do you board in both pacts and both CoV against permanent hate?
Junkie:
I wished for it twice on the day. Once to set up the kill the next turn versus an elves player and once while going off after I had infernal'ed for an extra ritual the turn before. Also not being able to get the best card in the deck with half of your tutors seems silly.
I never found myself wanting to board in the empty, but could see it happening vs decks with more of a clock(I'd probably side out the AN) with disruption (RUG, but they are about 50/50 to have).
Tombstalker:
Yeah, most of the permanent hate these days is creature based so the pacts are very good, I also got to play a pact and flash it back via past in flames for 2 free storm count which was pretty satisfying. Typically I board out all my discard versus maverick with the exception of a thoughtseize and board in the 2 pacts, 3 bounce and the chrome mox. Vs. affinity I should have left in more discard, I boarded the same as maverick, but forgot they play mindbreak trap post board. (I would probably board the 2 chains and 2 pacts for duresses, and possibly a preordain for the 4th thoughtseize to the main)
Moving forward I want more extirpates since that may be the only way to win the dredge/reanimator matchup. possibly cutting the chrome mox and/or the meltdown. no one plays chalice/ mud and you may just want to toss that matchup along into the counterbalance pile and almost give it up, and since no one plays either of those decks I'd rather use the spots on cards that matter. going to work on the board the next few weeks and figure out what i need to do with it.
Cool I'm on a similar plan with 2 pacts 2 chains against maverick and I've really come to appreciate pact. I've also been running 2 IoK in the board but ive been considering going up to 3, all to board in against hate bears. Anyone else that does this? I guess my board is similar to TES although I would like to squeeze some extirpates too. For those of you who run PiF side do you also run IGG or has PiF replaced it?
Lastly regarding sweepers I haven't really been impressed with virtues ruin or infest tbh. Reason is Thalia. I am now thinking pyroclasm or even massacre would be better and just deal with teeg with pact/chain/death mark. Pyroclasm also seems worthwhile against dredge and other corner cases too. Thoughts?
Edit- I own dead of night and I've used it elsewhere but its not a tutor target so not sure how worthwhile it would be.
Hi, Tombstalkr!
I am the guy running both IGG and PiF in the SB.
And My bulit is 3 Infernal Tutor/3 Burning Wish split(with 1 Infernal Tutor in my SB). I have IGG in my SB, and IGG is really useful sometimes even if you guys already have PiF both in the MD and SB.
There was one time I won via a ridiculous IGGY-LOOP.
It was against Mavrick,which means I must go off as fast as I can before the hate bears going on the board. My opening hand was: Burning Wish, Burning Wish, LED, LED, Petal, Swamp, another card. I decided to go off turn 1.
My action was swamp for Black mana and then: Petal=> LED => LED=>(Cracking Petal for Red)=>Burning Wish(and then Cracking 2 LEDs for BBBRRR) for IGG=>IGG(with RR as floating mana) to get the 2nd Buring Wish, LED, LED back=>LED=>LED=>Buring Wish(Cracking 2 LEDs for BBBBBB) for Infernal Tutor in my SB=> Infernal Tutor=>Tendrils for Exactly 20.
Yes, if not IGG, I can never go off tun 1. Pif and AdN will not help me in that situation.
So, IGG is a useful storm engine if you happens to draw a lot of LEDs and very few Rituals and excessive Tutors.
Edit: In my opinion, IGG is more useful in SB than in MD if it's a UBr ANT. PiF has the advantage over IGG(in main deck). PiF is less interactive than IGG with you opp, especially if you opp is a blue deck running several Forces. And I will only go via IGGY-LOOP if I am sure(1)my opp is not a blue deck or (2) he has not yet got the counters.
Just personal opinion. hope it will help you.
Last edited by entreri_fans; 07-05-2012 at 11:00 AM. Reason: explain more
How are you ever beating mom+ thalia (or any other hatebear)? ruin and infest are good because they kill everything, I can see a shift to massacre if people cut teeg, but they typically play one and have it as a zenith target, so teeg will always exist.
The alternative could be to just play through it.
Ok so ive done some searches and cant find what im looking for so ill just ask, is there a UBg version of ANT that utilizes living wish? Its probably inferior to burning wish but the idea is interesting to me. If anyone could point me in that direction I would be thankful (but not PSI), otherwise I was thinking something like this might work:
Rough outline:
13-16 Lands +
1 dryad arbor
4 LED
4 dark ritual
4 lotus petal
4 cabal ritual
0-2 chrome mox
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2-3 gitaxian probe
4 autumn's veil
3-4 cabal therapy
4 infernal tutor
3-4 living wish
1 ill-gotten gains
1 tendrils of agony
1-2 ad nauseam
Sideboard considerations with living wish:
shriekmaw
xantid swarm
gilded drake
faerie macabre
scavenging ooze
vampire hexmage
aethersnipe
phyrexian revoker
cabal pit
wasteland
bojuka bog
karakas
glacial chasm
dryad arbor
dark depths
the tabernacle at pendrell vale
plus usual board in options
It seems like there are some very relevant cards right now that living wish could facilitate and all LW targets avoid teeg and thalia which is great. Autumns veil is better than chant in a couple ways (except stopping attacks but lands handle that) while cabal therapy seems really good with probe + arbor (and swarms etc since sometimes you may want to still shred their hand after chanting them).
So is this worth pursuing or not?
BW was introduced to the ANT lists so they can have some more business because 4x IT + And were not enough, it is used as the replacement of Grim Tutor (not that BW is inferior to it, neither superior, just kinda different animals that may fulfill the same role). Living Wish is inserted into ANT as a protection slot, not business, so I guess it' s not worth trying it that way, because regular protection is more than enough for the current lists (it is not the main flaw of the deck, but the lack of business may be...).
However it can be funny to see a Tombstalker coming from nowhere once opponent's hand is fully ripped.You can make some laughs and steal some random games.
Greetings,
Iņaki.-
P.S.Plus the Mage + Depths seems quite greedy to be pulled (both) from the wish, and playing an hybrid (with some mages and depths main seems quite anti-sinergic.
Spike-Johnny
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