[Deck] The Rock

[sdematt]

They're two totally different cards.

In complicated creature combat, you want the Equipment. Utility in those situations is great. If you're trying to close the life total gap in as few turns as possible, then Goyf may be what you need. I've found I like Tarmogoyf because of the one-two punch we give most decks. Rip apart your hand is step one. Remove your threat and swing in is step two. I don't want to wait too long for when they recover from step one before step 2 starts.

SFM is a fine utility card, I just find it slow and I have few ways to adequately protect it, and I don't like the amount of investment in it. I do like Equipment, and I'd probably run 2 Jitte if I had extra slots, since Equipment trumps creature combat. Unfortunately, with the amount of unfair things I have to deal with right now, SFM did not make the current cut, more targeted discard and other effects did.

I would never say one is strictly better or worse than the other. This isn't like comparing Lord of Atlantis with the new Merfolk Lord, because that IS a situation of strictly better or worse. This is utility versus beef. Ideally, you have both. I'd love to run a creature suite of:

4 SFM
4 Dark confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight
2 Ooze
1 Qasali
1 Tracker

This would be fine too if we were never playing anything besides creature based decks.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

Way to make us play nice Matt:p I really like SFM as a card and would also love to play 3-4 but it is too slow for what I want to do and requires too much of a mana investment.

Well stated.

[militiaman89]

so tommarrow night i am going to my weekly legacy tourny usually we have around 20 or so people with a diverse format. I will post results of how i do and my matchups.
here is the list i will be running tommarrow
4 KotR
4 Bob
2 SFM
1 teeg (miracle control is around) and a beotch to play against
1 goyf
1 ooze
1 qasali
3 maelstrom pulse
4 STP
3 inquisition
2 thoughtseize
2 green sun
2 top
1 library
3 mox diamond
1 batterskull
1 jitte
24 land

I want to play it out and see how i feel about stoneforge and also if hymn should go back in the deck.

[lavafrogg]

Good luck buddy! I wish i had a local tourney anywhere near me:( I would play all the time!

A junk list made day 2 of Atlanta if anyone can find the list!

[sdematt]

I haven't seen that list, but here's the spoils of war from yesterday:



Also, we went for 5 guys Burgers afterwards, and then brought their spice mix back across the border. I guess you could say we did the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs



-Matt

[Thorondor]

with 4 lands and 2 mox diamonds it is possible to have an active jitte on turn 2.

[Mirrislegend]

As I ready my last couple posts I realized that I sounded like an asshole and for that I am sorry. I still feel like I am correct but I need to find a way to express the fact that my amazing girlfriend and I have been drinking since 10 form coming through in my messages.

I'm glad to hear that. I'm proud that The Source is a place for legitimate discussion and not belligerent fanboys, and I'm glad that "Great post bro" is not what a valued member of our discussion had become. Also, sorry if I drove you to anger, I enjoy a spirited discussion, so I was all for our lengthy argument!

Also, I've taken your advice to heart (a little bit ). I've been playing 3x Lingering Souls and loving them. However, they stare at me sadly from my hand when Daze or Thalia is across the board. Then I realized, most of the time, they block for profit! And Goyf can do that too, without dying (ie: providing similar card advantage), avoiding Pierce and Thalia, and easier to get past Daze. So I cut one Souls for one Goyf (bringing Goyf total to 2, with 3 Stoneforge) and I believe it will work out well. I'm looking forward to testing it (and hopefully surviving RUG's and Mav's early beats better)!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Instead of arguing over beaters, why not try to figure that out instead.

That was what I was originally trying to get to: figuring out the unfair-deck MUs.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@Sughayyer: How do you like Liliana? What MUs does she shine most in?

@sdematt: Could we get some details on your experiences with Tracker? It sounds like it worked out well, but I'd like to hear what MUs/situations you thought it was the most valuable. Also, congrats on the Kessel run. That stuff is the best part about 5 guys. I've heard it's actually very similar to the yummy spices on ramen. There's even a word for it in Japanese.

[Thorondor]

I also play tracker in the SB, sadly I does not hit play that often, maybe playing him main is a good idea especially when merfolk, goblins, elves are on the rise.
For now I can't say much about him, but about liliana.

I play 2 of them main and most of the time, she has been awesome, she has been awesome, plays like:
1. turn land, mox diamond, confi, second turn, land liliana,
totally breaks the game especially against fair decks, when they don't have stp or force, even with stp, liliana on board is always huge, because they can't force confi and lilli and if they do it cost them many cards.

[Sughayyer]

@Mirrislegend
Most people have problems with liliana in the sense that there aren't many pinches for her discard ability, but we have plenty: seldom do we need 2 mox on the field as well as 2 tops, sometimes I discard a bob if I have stabilized with lili and a bob in the field, and also running 24 lands I'm not afraid of discarding one.
She helps stabilize a lot, is great against decks like maverick, and provides the "edict" effect against reanimator (that is, if we get her online).
We are one of the few decks that can play her fast (we can cast her on turn 2). Her effects are also great agaisnt random decks (like enchantress), is VERY good against combo (coupled with seizes and hymns) and she also hurts control, depriving them of their cards. I'm usually able to perform her ultimate quickly. I'd say I like her more than I liked deeds in main deck.
She also has the same psychological effects than bob - when you cast a bob, the opponent usually feels he's losing (even if that's not the case). When you get a planeswalker fast in the field like we can, the opponent feels the same. The strategy changes a bit when we're using her, as we start using the cards on the top (or library) rather the cards in our hand, but then again, our deck works by disrupting our opponent's plan and using board presence, so I think that she's all about it.

[Sughayyer]

Didnt see Thorondor's post. I agree 100%.

[Mirrislegend]

@Mirrislegend
Most people have problems with liliana in the sense that there aren't many pinches for her discard ability, but we have plenty: seldom do we need 2 mox on the field as well as 2 tops, sometimes I discard a bob if I have stabilized with lili and a bob in the field, and also running 24 lands I'm not afraid of discarding one.
She helps stabilize a lot, is great against decks like maverick, and provides the "edict" effect against reanimator (that is, if we get her online).
We are one of the few decks that can play her fast (we can cast her on turn 2). Her effects are also great agaisnt random decks (like enchantress), is VERY good against combo (coupled with seizes and hymns) and she also hurts control, depriving them of their cards. I'm usually able to perform her ultimate quickly. I'd say I like her more than I liked deeds in main deck.
She also has the same psychological effects than bob - when you cast a bob, the opponent usually feels he's losing (even if that's not the case). When you get a planeswalker fast in the field like we can, the opponent feels the same. The strategy changes a bit when we're using her, as we start using the cards on the top (or library) rather the cards in our hand, but then again, our deck works by disrupting our opponent's plan and using board presence, so I think that she's all about it.

Thank you for your thorough explanation! I see how she's a valuable asset... just not in any version I would play . For the control builds, it sounds like she provides lovely domination, without having to risk your permanents to Deed.

[Sughayyer]

I'll try to get me some gszs and try less hymn, more pointed discards and the gsz toolbox, but I don't think I can make these changes in time for tomorrow, so I'm gonna use my "traditional" list. As soon as I test the gsz version I'll add my feelings about it . It seems really nice to fetch a tracker or a qasali.
Ah one question: In the gsz builds, I see usually 3 maelstrom pulse as the permanent removal. Is that so because of the qasali (that can remove enchantments and artifacts) and tracker (that is recurring against creatures)? The more I think about it the more I think that the gsz version has more resources. I'm really divided

[Mirrislegend]

I'll try to get me some gszs and try less hymn, more pointed discards and the gsz toolbox, but I don't think I can make these changes in time for tomorrow, so I'm gonna use my "traditional" list. As soon as I test the gsz version I'll add my feelings about it . It seems really nice to fetch a tracker or a qasali.
Ah one question: In the gsz builds, I see usually 3 maelstrom pulse as the permanent removal. Is that so because of the qasali (that can remove enchantments and artifacts) and tracker (that is recurring against creatures)? The more I think about it the more I think that the gsz version has more resources. I'm really divided

I was under the impression that GSZ was almost required. I've heard that it's been great across the board. This is no matter what versions you use: SFM vs Goyf, Mox vs Deed, Hymn vs Pinpoint. If somebody feels otherwise, please speak up!

[Qweerios]

GSZ is the strongest card in this deck. It is better than Bob, Deed, KotR, or any power house in the deck for that matter. It is a tutor for 1 green mana with an incredible array of quality targets. GSZ is, in my opinion, one of the best cards ever printed for legacy for its quality, flexibility, ease of play, and most importantly, its redundance and regularity. It will also only get better and better with each passing set.

Any Maverick player would agree with this too, because Maverick wouldn't be what it is without the green sun's dawn. IMO, GSZ is the green Brainstorm...

[sdematt]

GSZ is VERY good. I beg to differ about it being the BEST card, it's one of the tools to get out your best cards. It's a really good card among a group of good cards.

@ Tracker

So here's how I used Tracker for profit.

In Round 1 against Mono Black Aggro, I was able to use Tracker to have Abyssal Persecutor and Knight fight, otherwise I'd be unable to actually kill a flying creature until I hit removal (which I didn't).

Using Deathtouch Wolves off Garruk to fight Vampire Nighthawks was also key, considering throwing my Knight under the bus to take out a really good blocker seems awful.

In the Goblins matchup, I was able to knock out Piledrivers with the triggers on the stack, or Chieftains at end of main, etc. It was critical because it essentially provided me with another wall. It was like having two Knights attacking or blocking, especially with little things, allowing me to take out the random garbage. It's a reusable removal spell, and then Ooze nicely cleans up the mess. Swords doesn't play well with Ooze, but Tracker does.

In the Stoneblade matchup, it not only beat for one, but also stayed back and provided support in case they flashed in a blocker, allowing me to actually get in there. They have few creatures, and so do we. The more turns that I can't directly attack their Jace are more turns where I'm more likely to lose. Destroying a blocking creature to get in for 3-10 damage is really good, and sometimes the turn is all that you need. It can also force their hand regarding SFM activations and combat tricks. In one case, I had Dryad Arbor fight a Vendilion Clique that was going to kill me eventually, but didn't have removal for. I killed Snapcasters, Factories, SFM, etc. Tracker itself becomes a Knight/Goyf/Ooze.

Plus, it's nice to be able to GSZ for it. It chump blocks, too.

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

Seems like Uvenwald covers a lot of the ground that SFM does, providing utility, flexibility, options, and tricks. Thus, I have a feeling that Uvenwald is PERFECT for your version, and other SFM-less Rock decks.

[lavafrogg]

Mirri- Once again I am sorry for my responses yesterday. I was sitting at Four Peaks Brewery in Tempe, enjoying the fact that I was turning into a internet troll... I was not helping any discussion no matter how I feel on the topic. Thank you for your maturity in not letting the conversation degrade further:p

On Tracker- Tracker is insane in testing and has the amazing benefit of being searchable for GSZ. The problem is now that we have hit an uncomfortable number of GSZ targets, as one of's, and now have to decide witch match ups we don't want a silver bullet against main board. Between Tracker, Teeg, Ooze, Pridemage(witness, terravore, thrun) our silver bullets are getting quite diversified.

On GSZ- I am fully supporting the 4 GSZ builds right now, the card is insane in all stages of the game it is like a brainstorm that plays the card you find(and its always the best card for the situation!)

On Planeswalkers- Garruk vs Liliana They are both houses against similar decks RUG and Stoneblade, but Liliana is better against combo and reanimator while Garruk is better against random aggro decks that are running around the format. It is a choice once again based on what you will be seeing in tourney play. I prefer Lilliana with the one of life from the loam as a sustainability engine and for the fact that I play a shit ton of RUG and Maverick and 3 is easier to get to that 4, by a long shot....

Sughay- When you run 5 virtual pridemages artifacts and enchantments become less of a bother. I run volrath's stronghold to recur the bugger(tutor-able by knight!) to ensure equipment can always go straight to hell. After that you have swords to plowshares, in every build, and tracker to handle creatures. This leaves 2-4 flex spots that some people put pulse or vindicate in to ensure they have the super versatile answers at all times.

[Sughayyer]

@ Everyone supporting gsz

You've all seen my list. I want to fit in 2 gsz (I feel 2 is enough, with all the tops, bobs, library etc). With gsz I want to add (at least for now) tracker and qasali (ooze too, but it can come later). Suggestions on what to take away? Entering zenith (and also dryad arbor) I know I can run 23 lands. So that's one land less. I know I can take away 1 goyf too, and maybe 1 vindicate. The second vindicate I run would become the third pulse.
so now I have: +2 gsz +1 qasali +1 tracker, but -1 land -1 vindicate -1 goyf... still have to take something away. I considered dropping hymn for pinpoint because in my view, hymn is either 4 or 0, but it is really a fantastic card... maybe drop 1 reliquary and play 3? I'm not confortable with that. All suggestions are welcome!!! However, tomorrow I'll probbly have to paly with my traditional list, since it may take some time for me to get the gsz (it's really hard to find here).

[ryn ball_2]

I agree w/ the inclusion of GSZ, when i'm using the somewhat classic build i experienced it can be aggressive in turn 1 plays and can throw bunch of disruptions and pernament kills in early to mid game but there are times that i drew irrelevant things w/c i wish to drew a creatures just to finish him off, you know that feeling that you MUST land a creature to gain field advantage esp massive big KOTR, goyf etc. Plus i'm a kind of player that i need some answers to kind of situation like against dredge gsz for ooze or kotr to have an active kotr to bog nxt turn, against enchantment where qasali shines from gsz even or w/o pulse in hand and etc.. Anyways the inclusion of that card somewhat complete not topdecking skills to drew creatures :)

In my current list
4 bob
4 kotr
2 sfm
2 ooze
1 goyf
1 thrun
1 qasali
1 arbor
along w/ 2 GSZ

[lavafrogg]

Sugah- From your list I would go -4 hymn +4 1cc discard(bringing you to 6 1cc discard spells) -1 vindicate -1 Lilliana +2 GSZ +1 Ooze +1 Tracker.

The tracker means you need less board control due to its ability and ooze replaces the long term value of the planeswalker by providing the end to the opponents recursion strategies.

All in all I would more towards a list more like sdematts list as you can afford the cards.

For what it is worth this is my non-loam list right now(still has a loam...):

Doods(15):
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Tracker
1 Ooze
1 Pridemage

Spells(15):
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
3 IoK
4 GSZ
1 Life from the Loam

Stuff(6):
3 Lilliana of the Veil
3 Mox Diamond

Lands(24):
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
3 Savannah
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith/Karakas
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Dryad Arbor

Board:
3 Krosan Grips
2 Zealous Persecutions
3 Path to Exile
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Eternal Witness
1 Terravore
1 Karakas

Dumb Idea: is Glissa, the Traitor a playable card? I'm trying to find reasons to play Rock over Maverick that will appeal to the masses, Glissa as a GSZ target with 3x EE seems like a good start... She fucks up everything in maverick. She would add more reasons to play 3x metamorph in the board for reanimator/sneak...