All B/R update speculation.

[Julian23]

There hasn't been a dedicated control deck in/close to tier1 in Legacy for like 2-3 years. Only recently, it's viable again and doing pretty well.

[caiomarcos]

There hasn't been a dedicated control deck in/close to tier1 in Legacy for like 2-3 years. Only recently, it's viable again and doing pretty well.

UW Blade?

[Einherjer]

There hasn't been a dedicated control deck in/close to tier1 in Legacy for like 2-3 years. Only recently, it's viable again and doing pretty well.

read again

[Bzka]

well, UBG Jacestill with Mental Misstep was close to Tier1 for a while

[Julian23]

well, UBG Jacestill with Mental Misstep was close to Tier1 for a while

Touché, although it's only been legal for a brief period of time. But that's the kind of control I'm talking about. Playing Equipment or Geist of Saint Traft might make you play the control role in certain matchups, but it's not dedicated control. The later gets hit by Black Vise pretty hard while the former doesn't really care about it.

[DragoFireheart]

I think its about time aggro decks got some solid hate for control decks. 7 out of 8 decks in DTB run Brainstorm and Force of Will. I honestly don't see it getting any better with cards as powerful as Show and Tell, Snapcaster and Delver.

You're kidding right? I think what you meant to say was aggro/control or combo/control.

[Humphrey]

I remember playing UR and UWb Landstill 2 years ago, which was dedicated and Tier1
BUG control was often close to Tier1, too.

But actually, that doesnt matter, because Vise is too good against slow hands every deck can have.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

We had the Vise discussion before. Vise is 5 dmg for , potentially more against slower decks. Abusable by Burn, Tempo and Prisondecks

Burn and Prison are hardly rampant, and I doubt Temp would run this. And if they did, so what? What's with people arguing that banned cards should stay banned simply because they might see play?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

read again

Yeah, U/W Stoneblade lists have been pretty solidly in the control department for years, with a few exceptions. A couple of Geists or Cliques isn't enough to change the fact that the deck is generally slow as balls (at least unless you're running Vapor Snag and Delver apparently.)

[caiomarcos]

Touché, although it's only been legal for a brief period of time. But that's the kind of control I'm talking about. Playing Equipment or Geist of Saint Traft might make you play the control role in certain matchups, but it's not dedicated control. The later gets hit by Black Vise pretty hard while the former doesn't really care about it.

So there are NO viable dedicated control decks at the moment, right?

The first quote, were I asked about UW Blade, gave me the impression that there was one.

I was saying so at one thread discussing "legacy is too fast" and my argument was that recent cards (Stoneforge and Jace) made the whole control archetype quite aggressive and much faster. Not REAL control anymore.

[CorpT]

Are there viable Aggro decks?

[Julian23]

With the exception of BUG-Still during the MM-era, UW Miracles is the first dedicated Tier1 control since classic UW(b) Landstill. A case could be made for CounterTopGoyf if you're willing to accept Goyf as a source of virtual card advantage instead of a beatstick.

Are there viable Aggro decks?

Goblins is super-viable atm.

[CorpT]

Goblins is super-viable atm.

I don't know that Goblins qualifies as an aggro deck.*

Which is sort of the point. No, there is no dedicated or pure control deck. Just like there is no dedicated or pure aggro deck. Nothing is pure anymore. Control decks have to play aggro and tempo features, aggro decks have to play control and tempo features.

*IMO, a deck like Affinity or Zoo is an aggro deck. Neither of those are particularly viable these days. A deck like Burn is a combo deck IMO. But these are vague and nebulous definitions at best.

[jjjoness']

People need to stop believing in the trinity of magic, as in aggro, control, and combo. Very few decks qualify for one and only one of those categories.

[Amon Amarth]

I don't know that Goblins qualifies as an aggro deck.*

Which is sort of the point. No, there is no dedicated or pure control deck. Just like there is no dedicated or pure aggro deck. Nothing is pure anymore. Control decks have to play aggro and tempo features, aggro decks have to play control and tempo features.

*IMO, a deck like Affinity or Zoo is an aggro deck. Neither of those are particularly viable these days. A deck like Burn is a combo deck IMO. But these are vague and nebulous definitions at best.

Hard to swallow that a deck that runs 30+ creatures isn't an aggro deck. Zoo can use it's burn to kill creatures does that make it aggro/control? I don't think so. I think you're getting the roles decks take up in games and the more abstract concept of what strategy you're using to win the game.

[Ignithas_]

Zoo was the last time a pure aggro deck was T1 (when you don't see combo decks as aggro decks). So right now we don't have a pure aggro deck. Can I come to the conclusion to ban sweepers because they are good against an archtype that doesn't exist? The powerlevel of Black Vise isn't as strong as some of you may think. It's a strong card against certain archtypes (control, controlish tempo), medicore against other and useless against the same amount and a horrible topdeck. Therefore it is a hatecard, that isn't even as strong as other hate cards in the format.

People play Black Vise, you don't have the Force of Will for it, you die. That's not the kind of Magic I want to play. Against other decks, it's just a bad and conditional Burnspell.
In general, it promotes variance. There will always be players who will try to make it on the back of variance, people are gonna play it because they hate control.

There are blowout strategys against every pure archtype. Aggro is so extremly unfavored against combo and combo is extremly unfavoured against counterspells with a clock. People pack sweepers because they hate aggro, FoW when they hate combo (I think other colors should also have such anti-combo cards, because most colors also have sweeper) and they should also be allowed to play Black Vise when they hate control.

[wcm8]

Hard to swallow that a deck that runs 30+ creatures isn't an aggro deck. Zoo can use it's burn to kill creatures does that make it aggro/control? I don't think so. I think you're getting the roles decks take up in games and the more abstract concept of what strategy you're using to win the game.

In a lot of ways, Goblins is more like a hybrid aggro/control/combo deck. The cards themselves happen to have power and toughness, but the effects are more synergistic than your typical aggro deck. Goblin Matron is basically Demonic Tutor, Ringleader is basically Ancestral Recall, and there are plenty of 'goblins' that have some sort of board control effect (Gempalm, Seige Gang, Tin-Street Hooligan etc.) I think lumping Goblins in with decks like Zoo or Affinity is a failure to see the forest for the trees.

edit: Does anybody think there will be a point in the future where Mental Misstep will be unbanned? Or is its effect so powerful/unfun that it deserves eternal banishment to Vintage land? I suppose a strike against it is that most decks would essentially be starting at 56 cards (52 if you count Brainstorm..)

[joemauer]

Stoneblade is not a "dedicated" control deck?
Goblins is not a aggro deck?
Why not?

Stoneblade controls the board with StP, FoW, and Jace. It wins with a few efficient threats. Follows the same gameplan control decks always have.

Is it because it runs too many creatures? A lot of lists run 8 creatures total and half of their creatures(snapcasters) act like a spell in the deck.

Is it because it wins too fast? Is that the definition of dedicated control? This seems absurd to me.

Current control decks may not be "traditional control decks" because they don't follow the exact cookie cutter build that they used to. However, we know decks must evolve to remain competitive. In order to remain a competitive deck, control decks have increased their clock while still winning in the same manner.

Please enlighten me on the definition of true control.

As far as goblins go, of course it is an aggro deck. It has only one path to victory which is aggressive creatures. Just because its creatures synergize with each other doesn't make it less of an aggro deck. How could this not be an aggro deck?

[wcm8]

It has only one path to victory which is aggressive creatures. Just because its creatures synergize with each other doesn't make it less of an aggro deck. How could this not be an aggro deck?

Plenty of control AND combo decks only win via the combat phase (e.g. Team America, Combo Elves, etc.) This still doesn't classify them as aggro-decks because their overall gameplan is reliant on a particular approach that would classify as other archetypes.

Goblins sometimes does have the nuts aggressive draw, but it often switches gears depending on the matchup and plays more midrange/controlling. And I would say that T1 Lackey is a very 'combo-y' play, since it generally wins the game if unopposed.

[joemauer]

Plenty of control AND combo decks only win via the combat phase (e.g. Team America, Combo Elves, etc.) This still doesn't classify them as aggro-decks because their overall gameplan is reliant on a particular approach that would classify as other archetypes.

Goblins sometimes does have the nuts aggressive draw, but it often switches gears depending on the matchup and plays more midrange/controlling. And I would say that T1 Lackey is a very 'combo-y' play, since it generally wins the game if unopposed.

Lackey is a 'combo-y' play. You make a good point sir. Combo undertones are there in Goblins.

I don't feel Goblins is controlling though. It just has more awesome creatures than other aggro decks.
Zoo plays lightning bolts. Should we call it aggro control since it can bolt creatures when needed?