All B/R update speculation.

[Vacrix]

You know what I miss? Survival. Every tournament I miss seeing that deck. The lists were always really cool and it could be built a bunch of ways. Until Vengevine was printed it was always a good card and never a broken one. I don't see any justification at all for keeping it on the banned list instead of Vengevine.

Anyway.

At least the list has less obviously-not-broken-cards than it once did (a lot less, actually, to give Wizards credit.)

Still, I'd like to see these straight up come off:

Black Vise
Earthcraft
Goblin Recruiter
Mind Twist
Worldgorger Dragon

I agree with dropping those 5.

I think the problem with Survival wasn't just that Vengevine made it broken, but that Vengevine made it a stupid fucking combo. Survival wasn't exactly an easy deck to play pre-Vengevine and Survival itself was such a good engine that it created more variants than I've seen in a deck type, perhaps as much as Thresh if not more. Vengevine made it way too easy to play, not to mention quite difficult to contain considering they could play a blue protection suite. I also agree here. Vengevine and Survival should switch. This might be a case of 'ban the enablers' but in this case I don't think Survival would become OP down the road because WotC knows not to print something as retarded as Vengevine. Survival is a fun enabler to have in the format, even if you don't want to play it yourself.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

What do you guys think about unbanning Fastbond? I've been thinking, it seems like one of those things that could never come off, but I think it would only get played in Elves, Lands, and perhaps storm combo, all of which relatively don't see a whole lot of play or top 8s these days. I think its possible that control has powercreeped so far ahead that its time for it to get brought up in discussion as potentially unbannable.


EDIT:
Perhaps its too strong. Terramorphic Expanse + Crucible, Emrakul seems a bit OP. There might be too many degenerate decks that could abuse this card. Still I'd like to hear thoughts on what decks would play it, or what combinations best abuse it.

Try this list:

4 Fastbond
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Crop Rotation
3 Zuran Orb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mindslaver
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
4 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Academy Ruins
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Plains
2 Forest

[kiblast]

You know what I miss? Survival. Every tournament I miss seeing that deck. The lists were always really cool and it could be built a bunch of ways. Until Vengevine was printed it was always a good card and never a broken one. I don't see any justification at all for keeping it on the banned list instead of Vengevine.

Not only I'd love to see SotF unbanned, but I would not have problems with a format in which SotF and VV would co exist. Would it really be that broken? I mean, would it still be broken if players started sideboarding against it instead of thinking that you can stop a gameplan through asking for bans?

[rxavage]

If Survival were to be unbanned I'd play green again, something I haven't done since I was young.

[sdematt]

Not only I'd love to see SotF unbanned, but I would not have problems with a format in which SotF and VV would co exist. Would it really be that broken? I mean, would it still be broken if players started sideboarding against it instead of thinking that you can stop a gameplan through asking for bans?

Woah, slow down Ki. You're asking people to think for themselves, and even possibly pack hate. Americans shouldn't be expected to think that far outside the box, that's why Wizards bans things.

Vengevine broke Survival a little bit, but this was BEFORE Surgical Extraction, which basically knees it in the groin. Triggers on the stack, nut you?

The sheer amount of Survival variants were great, and never that busted.

-Matt

[Koby]

Try this list:

4 Fastbond
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Crop Rotation
3 Zuran Orb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mindslaver
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
4 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Academy Ruins
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Plains
2 Forest

Missing Valakut and 6 mountains, but more or less - yes.

The sheer amount of Survival variants were great, and never that busted.

-Matt

You've never played against a turn 3 hasty Emrakul and an army of Angry Elves have you?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm pretty sure Survival decks don't just die to having their Vengevines exiled.

And honestly, I don't care if Vengevine is banned or not. I just don't. Survival, though? That card was an iconic part of Legacy for most of its goddamn existence, and I think its absence diminishes the format. Frankly I have no respect for any asshole that gets upset at the idea of Brainstorm getting banned but isn't upset that SotF is gone.

[Lemnear]

Gorger's problem is that it was/is often used to stall via drawing games endlessly like Sheherazade. Don't know how a Format without a history of dedicated anti-graveyard sb's would react to it. I would support a unbanning. Same with earthcraft and mindtwist. Twist w/o fastmana is worthless and earthcraft is handleable unless the metagame again refuses to react to the pressence of a 2-mana Green enchantment via Pierce, snare, removal and cry for a ban instead.

Not sure about Vise and recruiter. Vise punishes the barely viable pure Control strategies and i am strictly against stacking decks which will do 2 things: endless stalling and cheating (yes, once a Player tried to Trick me with recruiter in Vintage)

[(nameless one)]

All I can say is three down (Illusionary Mask, Land Tax and Time Spiral) and three more to go (Earthcraft, Goblin Recruiter and Mind Twist).

Check this article out

[Lemnear]

All I can say is three down (Illusionary Mask, Land Tax and Time Spiral) and three more to go (Earthcraft, Goblin Recruiter and Mind Twist).

Check this article out

An article 2,5 years old. He can already walk and speak the following: "it doesn't matter that stephens opinion is!"

Legacy changed a Lot BTW. Alone the fact that Stephen didn't even consider Spital to make an impact and the fact that it did should Be a warning that Not every written word is gold. Moreover take a Close Look at the polls and remind the article is very One sided in favor of unbannings that will also influence the outcome

Edit: I guess i should dig for an old issue of the infamous ORACLE Magazine back from 1996 with their Exodus Set review saying that Oath of druids is Plain bad (conditional, reveal any creature of your creature-filled deck, opponent can trigger too, etc) and Survival is only worth playing if you wanna Trade your "Llanowar Elves for a verdant Force". May discuss their unbanning based on that opinion

[Lord Seth]

Legacy changed a Lot BTW. Alone the fact that Stephen didn't even consider Spital to make an impact and the fact that it did should Be a warning that Not every written word is gold.

Did you read the same article? He does say he thinks Time Spiral would have an impact ("The argument for unbanning Time Spiral isn't that...it won't see any play"), and he even correctly predicts that its home would be High Tide. He's not quite right when he says that the card won't be cast before turn 4 (with Turnabout/Candelabra it can be cast earlier), but I'm confused as to where you're getting this idea where he said he didn't think it'd make an impact. Or did he say that somewhere else?

[Gheizen64]

Did you read the same article? He does say he thinks Time Spiral would have an impact ("The argument for unbanning Time Spiral isn't that...it won't see any play"), and he even correctly predicts that its home would be High Tide. He's not quite right when he says that the card won't be cast before turn 4 (with Turnabout/Candelabra it can be cast earlier), but I'm confused as to where you're getting this idea where he said he didn't think it'd make an impact. Or did he say that somewhere else?

Dunno, to me that article seems pretty spot-on. Tax having no impact, like Illusionary Mask. Spiral helping combo (like it did) and he predict Twist having 0 impact on the format (like i do). He makes some pretty convincing arguments about Recruiter and Earthcraft too, which i agree are pretty safe.

Need more Tolarian unban.

[DragoFireheart]

This post deserves more attention.

I would go further though and say that these distinctions were largely illusory to start with and have become only more so since.

There are threats, and there are answers, and there's resources and resource manipulation, and that's all that really exists in the game.

- So how do we classify decks? Or are you suggesting we shouldn't do so beyond just the name of the deck?

You do realize that when you said "There are threats, and there are answers, and there's resources and resource manipulation, and that's all that really exists in the game." you in a sense show that variations of threats, answers, and resources are how control, aggro, and combo decks are categorized.

EXAMPLE:

Aggro - Lots of threats.
Control - Lots of answers with resource manipulation.
Combo - Single threat with lots of resources.

[Mr. Safety]

I didn't know dbuel actually did Magic related things.

This still wasn't particularly accurate. You get more nuance than the RPS system of Aggro-control-combo, but only somewhat more. It's still a rough guide that fails in practice.

I agree...what I got out of it was the foundational elements of each archetype and why they were good (playing more than one section on the metagame clock.)

I feel that article does a decent job of preparing you for standard, or even modern. Legacy is just a completely different animal (I can't say anything about vintage due to my lack of experience with it.) Rules of tempo are radically different in legacy than any other format save possibly vintage, and again, without experience I can't speak on that.

As far as unbannings go, I think Black Vise is a good candidate. It may have a fast clock built in but you have to always nuts draw it in your opening hand. Beyond turn 1-2it gets really lousy, even in a dedicated blue shell.

[Lemnear]

I am sure, that the Trio of delver, wasteland and stifle would welcome Black Vise. I would replace the slow kill conditions like nimble moongoose with it in an instant.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I will never feel alright with Recruiter being unbanned after testing it extensively in Vintage.

IMO safest unbans in order...

1: Earthcraft
2: Mind's Desire
3: Mind Twist
4: Black Vise
5: Survival (Ban Vengevine and stop being stupid)

I don't think any of those would break the format. Survival, Vise, and Twist would all see play and maybe fringe play on Earthcraft or Desire as Wish target.

[Amon Amarth]

I will never feel alright with Recruiter being unbanned after testing it extensively in Vintage.

IMO safest unbans in order...

1: Earthcraft
2: Mind's Desire
3: Mind Twist
4: Black Vise
5: Survival (Ban Vengevine and stop being stupid)

I don't think any of those would break the format. Survival, Vise, and Twist would all see play and maybe fringe play on Earthcraft or Desire as Wish target.

Goblin Recruiter isn't doing anything in Vintage, as per TC. How is that evidence to keep it banned? Could you elaborate?

[Lemnear]

Goblin Recruiter isn't doing anything in Vintage, as per TC. How is that evidence to keep it banned? Could you elaborate?

Why you try to discuss the unbanning of recruiter based on it's peformance in a whole different environment?

Gifts ungiven is ok without vintage's fastmana and y.will; no Problem in Legacy.

Mechant scroll can get you turn 1 Force, Ancestral Recall or chain Gushes with Fastbond. Neither happens in Legacy.

Goblin Recruiter is a Tutor that will create insane cardadvantage/combos in Addition via ringleader etc. This just isn't THAT impressive in a Format like Vintage in which barely all Decks Play Tutors and broken Win-conditions instead of just win via creatures like most Legacy decks. There is a difference if you resolve a recruiter against a delver on the field or while opponent has a Blightsteel colossus, Time Vault + Key, Oath of druids, etc.

[Moondancerbb]

I will never feel alright with Recruiter being unbanned after testing it extensively in Vintage.

IMO safest unbans in order...

1: Earthcraft
2: Mind's Desire
3: Mind Twist
4: Black Vise
5: Survival (Ban Vengevine and stop being stupid)

I don't think any of those would break the format. Survival, Vise, and Twist would all see play and maybe fringe play on Earthcraft or Desire as Wish target.

The Problem with Survival is its an engine and its an engine that blanks a ton of other cards and strategies. When Survival was legal it was the best combo deck, Control deck and Aggro deck. Meaning you could build a deck that was playing close to all the positions on the metagame clock. Vengevine may have been the straw that broke the camels back but it was by no means banned because of the printing of one card.

[Pippin]

The Problem with Survival is its an engine and its an engine that blanks a ton of other cards and strategies.

Same thing could be said for Griselbrand right now, and yet that shit is still legal...

When Survival was legal it was the best combo deck, Control deck and Aggro deck. Meaning you could build a deck that was playing close to all the positions on the metagame clock.

This was true only when Vengevine got printed.

Vengevine may have been the straw that broke the camels back but it was by no means banned because of the printing of one card.

No, Vengevine was direct culprit.