All B/R update speculation.

[Awaclus]

I'm not convinced on the Recruiter unbanning being safe. Mind Twist and Earthcraft wouldn't cause a deck do anything that's not already done better by an existing deck as far as I understand though, they would be very safe.

[Mr. Safety]

If you unban Earthcraft you'll see so many turn 2 Elves Combo wins you'll want to throw up. Elves isn't dominating right now but Glimpse + Earthcraft seems broken to me, like Skullclamp and Glimpse broken.

[Kich867]

If you unban Earthcraft you'll see so many turn 2 Elves Combo wins you'll want to throw up. Elves isn't dominating right now but Glimpse + Earthcraft seems broken to me, like Skullclamp and Glimpse broken.

I'm really not so sure of this; how many earthcraft do you run in elves? What do you drop that doesn't hurt elves? Earthcraft, Glimpse, Gsz/Lw/SPact, the win condition, maybe a regal force.. Between lands and Glimpses and going off in unideal situations with less mana than you'd like, or less elves in hand, Earthcraft would be able to generate mana easily enough, but it'd be a more expensive less useful Heritage Druid in almost all cases. The best you can hope for is if you have 2 untapped elves down.

Also, what does a turn 2 win with Earthcraft look like? Turn 1 Mana dude, turn 2 Glimpse > birchlore ranger > nettle sentinel, tap them to play next nettle sentinel, nettle untaps, tap to play heritage, nettles untap, tap all 3 to play... earthcraft?

Where mana counts the most in elves is early, and a 2 mana investment that doesn't draw a card or two isn't really relevant. Even on turn 3, albeit more doable, I'd rather have 4 more elves. Note that, sure, on turn 2 once you miraculously have that specific god-hand up earthcraft would help, but you'd have 2 nettles and a heritage druid down at that point anyways and that alone is enough to power you through the combo and Earthcraft's are basically detrimental.

The only relevant thing I see Earthcraft doing is being used in fun little combo decks like Squirrel Nest.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm really not so sure of this; how many earthcraft do you run in elves? What do you drop that doesn't hurt elves? Earthcraft, Glimpse, Gsz/Lw/SPact, the win condition, maybe a regal force.. Between lands and Glimpses and going off in unideal situations with less mana than you'd like, or less elves in hand, Earthcraft would be able to generate mana easily enough, but it'd be a more expensive less useful Heritage Druid in almost all cases. The best you can hope for is if you have 2 untapped elves down.

Also, what does a turn 2 win with Earthcraft look like? Turn 1 Mana dude, turn 2 Glimpse > birchlore ranger > nettle sentinel, tap them to play next nettle sentinel, nettle untaps, tap to play heritage, nettles untap, tap all 3 to play... earthcraft?

Where mana counts the most in elves is early, and a 2 mana investment that doesn't draw a card or two isn't really relevant. Even on turn 3, albeit more doable, I'd rather have 4 more elves. Note that, sure, on turn 2 once you miraculously have that specific god-hand up earthcraft would help, but you'd have 2 nettles and a heritage druid down at that point anyways and that alone is enough to power you through the combo and Earthcraft's are basically detrimental.

The only relevant thing I see Earthcraft doing is being used in fun little combo decks like Squirrel Nest.

I was thinking it would be the time to maindeck Elvish Spirit Guide again...but stopping to really think about it, that wouldn't be enough. The benefit from Earthcraft is that it isn't susceptable to removal like Heritage Druid is. With it not being an elf though...makes it take up more non-elf space, as you mentioned, which is detrimental.

Moldy Cheerios anyone?

[millerd33]

What decks does Griselbrand blank?

[Kich867]

What decks does Griselbrand blank?

All of them?

[millerd33]

Can you name a few of these that are no longer viable because of GB?

[menace13]

Earthcraft+Nest would take 6 slots in an Elf deck to give it another combo plan in case Glimpse gets countered. As far as what to take out that depends on what list. The land count would have to go to 15-14, Shave a Heritage, Birchlore, Quirion Ranger. I dont think it's too good, but it isnt bad in the slightest to set up an End of Turn 20 1/1 rodent army.

[Kich867]

Can you name a few of these that are no longer viable because of GB?

Any deck in which Griselbrand resolves or enters the battlefield.

[Kich867]

Earthcraft+Nest would take 6 slots in an Elf deck to give it another combo plan in case Glimpse gets countered. As far as what to take out that depends on what list. The land count would have to go to 15-14, Shave a Heritage, Birchlore, Quirion Ranger. I dont think it's too good, but it isnt bad in the slightest to set up an End of Turn 20 1/1 rodent army.

That'd be nearly unplayable. Having a side-combo in elves blanks elves itself; you'd be pushing like 20 elves at that point and that's not nearly enough to go off. Earthcraft just doesn't really help the deck at all; I'd much rather see Earthcraft in a BUG combo deck with some silly shit like Veteran Explorer + Cabal Therapy nuking their hand simultaneously ramping into Earthcraft + Squirrel's Nest with force backup and brainstorm.

[rxavage]

Any deck in which Griselbrand resolves or enters the battlefield.

So those darn Griselbrand decks are pushing out all the other Griselbrand decks?

[menace13]

That'd be nearly unplayable.

No it wouldnt.

[Kich867]

So those darn Griselbrand decks are pushing out all the other Griselbrand decks?

No, just when he resolves. When I beat those decks it's a discard effect hitting their dig and they don't have the combo in-hand. The deck isn't unbeatable, just him.

No it wouldnt.

Compelling argument. Explain to me how elves functions on 14-15 lands with 1 fewer heritage, 1 fewer untapper, and 6-8 more cards that aren't elves? Glimpse, 8 Tutors, Win condition, Earthcraft, Squirrel Nest, a Regal Force probably.. Best cast scenario you have 23-25 elves left in the deck with a hyper inconsistent mana base with random combo pieces that would force you to mulligan like a boss. Even at 18 lands I occasionally have to keep a 1 lander and get blown out by a lightning bolt on my turn 1 mana dude with no turn 2 land drop. I've seen people running 15 lands, but they usually run elvish spirit guide to compensate for it, this list would be able to do no such thing and if it did it would be -that- much worse.

[millerd33]

Name the deck/decks that are no longer viable because of GB. I'm looking at results and while reanimator and sneak and show have climbed up the latter the same decks are still at the top as well. I'm just curious what decks are being forced out of the meta because of GB and if any other decks that were underplayed before have started to show up.

This is not a pro or con vs GB. I just want to know what decks cannot be played because of him and if any have come in to replace those decks in the meta.

[rxavage]

No, just when he resolves. When I beat those decks it's a discard effect hitting their dig and they don't have the combo in-hand. The deck isn't unbeatable, just him.

I've lost several games after resolving a Griselbrand, even been raced by 2/2's and an active Jitte.

[Kich867]

I've lost several games after resolving a Griselbrand, even been raced by 2/2's and an active Jitte.

This seems to lack context; you could simply block them one by one and keep drawing 7 until you find an answer. Unless by race you mean you had 1 turn to live anyways and they had lethal on the board, but I'm taking race to imply there were several turns available. I mean, I've beaten Sneak and Show with a single Grim Lavamancer and 2 bolts, is that the norm? No, and anecdotal one-of games that things happened to not go your way isn't an accurate representation of a common game state. Having an unfortunate hand or your brainstorms bricking on you isn't a basis to say that Griselbrand doesn't generally win when he resolves. I've seen his draw 7 not hit anything relevant, it happens, it's highly uncommon. I would never look at a single game where my opponent draws seven cards and doesn't find a useful card and say "Well clearly there's nothing wrong with this.", it's unrealistic and isn't an accurate portrayal of standard sneak and show games.

I've cabal therapied and hit 2 sneak attacks with lethal on the board next turn, he top decks sneak attack and wins anyways. Is that even common? No, not really. But like I said, the deck isn't unbeatable, it's just Griselbrand.

[menace13]

Compelling argument. Explain to me how elves functions on 14-15 lands with 1 fewer heritage, 1 fewer untapper, and 6-8 more cards that aren't elves? Glimpse, 8 Tutors, Win condition, Earthcraft, Squirrel Nest, a Regal Force probably.. Best cast scenario you have 23-25 elves left in the deck with a hyper inconsistent mana base with random combo pieces that would force you to mulligan like a boss. Even at 18 lands I occasionally have to keep a 1 lander and get blown out by a lightning bolt on my turn 1 mana dude with no turn 2 land drop. I've seen people running 15 lands, but they usually run elvish spirit guide to compensate for it, this list would be able to do no such thing and if it did it would be -that- much worse.

You are left with around 15 lands, 15 non creatures(4 of which are GSZ=Elf), and around 30 creatures. You play the same game as the deck does now, but you have another game winning combo as a back up that does not depend on an Elf in play.

I have seen many Elf decks with Craft+Nest place in MTGO Classic events. The deck is not unplayable.

[salvor]

Name the deck/decks that are no longer viable because of GB. I'm looking at results and while reanimator and sneak and show have climbed up the latter the same decks are still at the top as well. I'm just curious what decks are being forced out of the meta because of GB and if any other decks that were underplayed before have started to show up.

This is not a pro or con vs GB. I just want to know what decks cannot be played because of him and if any have come in to replace those decks in the meta.

1. Slow (resilient) combo decks as a class (High Tide, Solidarity).
These decks both are slower than griselbrand Sneak&Show and can't pack the same amount of protection.

2. Slower storm combos (ANT, Grinding station, Doomsday)
Comparable speed to S&S, but due to LED they can't run counterspells package (as Sneak/Reanimator player do), so if Sneak player is not a complete dumb, match is unwinnable for storm. Also storm don't have any sideboard answers to Sneak.
Added:Of course, everything in this section is untrue for fast storm combos like TES, they're are pretty good, of course.

These to things may seem to be not much, but it's the situation where entire archetype (3+ turn combodecks) are hated by single deck. Other people can told you about more decks, I don't play aggrodecks much, so I can't say if some of them got unplayable, and control can easily adapt to Griselbrand, for sure.

I guess the problem of Sneak and Show that it is unhateable combo deck, while being not so slow on average. I don't thing that unhateable combodeck is a healthy thing in any environment.

By the way, is this a deck with all matchups being 40% +? Some people said that wizards don't want such deck to exist in legacy...

[rxavage]

1. Slow (resilient) combo decks as a class (High Tide, Solidarity).
These decks both are slower than griselbrand Sneak&Show and can't pack the same amount of protection.

2. Slower storm combos (ANT, Grinding station, Doomsday)
Comparable speed to S&S, but due to LED they can't run counterspells package (as Sneak/Reanimator player do), so if Sneak player is not a complete dumb, much is unwinnable for storm. Also storm don't have any sideboard answers to Sneak.

These to things may seem to be not much, but it's the situation where entire archetype (3+ turn combodecks) are hated by single deck. Other people can told you about more decks, I don't play aggrodecks much, so I can't say if some of them got unplayable, and control can easily adapt to Griselbrand, for sure.

I guess the problem of Sneak and Show that it is unhateable combo deck, while being not so slow on average. I don't thing that unhateable combodeck is a healthy thing in any environment.

By the way, is this a deck with all matchups being 40% +? Some people said that wizards don't want such deck to exist in legacy...

I don't think anything in this post is not made up.

[joemauer]

Slower combo decks which are typically pretty resilient are very bad against Griselbrand decks. High Tide and Doomsday decks are bad against Reanimator and Sneak and Show decks. Now Reanimator has always been a bad matchup for said decks, but Sneak and Show wasn't. A sneaked or showed Progenitus wasn't much of a problem for either deck but a sneaked or showed Griselbrand equals good game against both decks.

These are the decks that get pushed out because of Griselbrand. These weren't tier one decks though, so this is why no one noticed.