All B/R update speculation.

[Pippin]

Maybe people will stop bitching about how broken Jizzlebrand is when they look up how fucking expensive the deck is to put together.

Are you seriously worried about a deck that costs like 2 grand to build? Yeah clearly this is going to show up a lot...

You have provided us the answer why it's a non issue in a small PTQ local metagame (or even in a bigger event) like that which Hopo mentioned quite a few times as an argument.

Griselbrand is not harder to get into play than Y. Bargain. Fact, and not even graveyard hate helps all the time due to FoW's. Y. Bargain can be stopped with something like Pithing Needle and it does absolutely nothing, while with Griselbrand you're still left with a 7/7 lifelinking flying monster that is not easy to race.

Also, Stifle does nothing against a competent Griselbrand pilot. Is immediate draw for 7 life relevant against tempo decks ? NO it isn't, lifelink on a huge monster is. You'll wait and attack first to gain 7 life and then activate the ability, if needed. No wonder cards like that are being thrown about as an absolute solution. Almost the same like how Aintrazi tried to resolve Gilded Drake against a Griselbrand in play in GP Atlanta. Didn't end up too well.

Griselbrand is a dumb design of a card. Hell, it was initially remarked as a casual card by Wizards and it ended up banned in the most representative casual format there is - EDH. How can someone design something like that? They needed 2 badass monsters for the set, and so they made Avacyn completely crap while at the same time they upgraded Y. Bargain?

[Vacrix]

They did not upgrade Y. Bargain. If they did, then it would cost 6, not 8. Thats a huge qualifier. Dark Ritual based storm combo would have a field day if Y. Bargain came back. I mean for crying out loud the deck would be called YES; Yawg's Enormous Shaft.

Cheating Jizz into play with Reanimate or SnT isn't nearly as powerful as black Rituals + the actual Y. Bargain. Also, there are tons of answers for Jizz, as previously mentioned. Its much harder to answer Yawg Bargain, namely because it comes into play WAY before Jizz ever would.

[Trailbreaker]

unban Wheel of Fortune ! :D

[Hopo]

You have provided us the answer why it's a non issue in a small PTQ local metagame (or even in a bigger event) like that which Hopo mentioned quite a few times as an argument.

what is this many times mentioned small ptq local metagame you are talking about? And can you state the massive problem it caused at the recent GP? Looks to me like you are just making stuff up and that's always a super-convincing way to contribute.

You just look really stupid and naive trying to tell that Griselbrand is dominating "smaller metagame" or even GP's when that doesn't seem to be happening. You are stating that things happen even when they don't and that is only retarded. Good luck trying to convince people how shit should get banned. Doesn't look to good so far but keep trying.

[Pippin]

what is this many times mentioned small ptq local metagame you are talking about? And can you state the massive problem it caused at the recent GP? Looks to me like you are just making stuff up and that's always a super-convincing way to contribute.

You just look really stupid and naive trying to tell that Griselbrand is dominating "smaller metagame" or even GP's when that doesn't seem to be happening. You are stating that things happen even when they don't and that is only retarded. Good luck trying to convince people how shit should get banned. Doesn't look to good so far but keep trying.

You're completely right. My arguments are not valid, while your polite vocabulary is obviously doing overtime work

edit. please do try to read with a bit more comprehension

[Gheizen64]

They did not upgrade Y. Bargain. If they did, then it would cost 6, not 8. Thats a huge qualifier. Dark Ritual based storm combo would have a field day if Y. Bargain came back. I mean for crying out loud the deck would be called YES; Yawg's Enormous Shaft.

Cheating Jizz into play with Reanimate or SnT isn't nearly as powerful as black Rituals + the actual Y. Bargain. Also, there are tons of answers for Jizz, as previously mentioned. Its much harder to answer Yawg Bargain, namely because it comes into play WAY before Jizz ever would.

Bargain has a lot of flaws compared to reanimating Grizzy.

First, with Grizzy you don't have to play all the spells in the same turn. What i mean is that you can play T1 Entomb, T2 reanimation spell, and if the second is countered, you can just play another reanimation spell. With rituals it's harder. To play out Bargain you need 2 rituals + Bargain (or 1 with threshold), and bargain itself is a spell. That mean that when Bargain is countered you need a lot to start again. When a reanimation spell is countered, you need only another reanimation spell. It's a far less intensive mana investment. If you include orim's chant to dodge permission, it's a 3-4 cards, 7 mana investment. If you include free counterspells, again, it's a lot more card compared to what a Reanimator deck need to play its grizzy.

Second, Bargain is easier to hate out, just because it attack you from simply one angle. A needle stop Bargain completely cold, while it still leave a 7/7 lifelinker in the case of Grizzy. No, actually, it doesn't simply stop bargain, it stop bargain AND you skip your draw step. I would have nightmares playing Bargain off a SnT and seeing revoker on the other side of the table. That's game right there. Sure, you can point at graveyard hate and say how it is pretty cheap. I can point at the fact that Reanimator play way more permission and control cards that any storm list, and the fact that Thalia/CotV are far harder to win against when you're on storm. All in all, i still think Bargain would be easier to hate than a Grizzy (especially when you consider SnT decks and reanimator both as Grizzy decks and not just reanimator).

Third, SnT doesn't play as well with Bargain as it does with grizzy. Why? Because in a Bargain/ritual deck SnT would accellerate only bargain, and nothing else (or it would? I don't know, i guess you could play Griselbrand also, but it would be subpar to play Grizz from rits). In reanimator and SnT decks, SnT play grizzly, but also emmy, Iona or the bounce Djinn. SnT isn't anywhere as good in a Bargain deck as it is in a SnT/Reanimator one.

Ad Nauseam does mostly what Bargain do, at an higher average life cost per card, but costing less, at instant speed, and it's harder to hate with a simple needle/revoker. A Bargain deck would probably be a more efficient (less dead cards in the main) but easier to hate Hive Mind deck. It wouldn't break the format any more than Griselbrand did. Imho it would have even less impact. And no, i don't think Necro is comparable to Bargain in legacy. Necro can be played easily on T1, compared to T3/4 of Bargain.

Just my 0.02.

[Awaclus]

Bargain has a lot of flaws compared to reanimating Grizzy.

First, with Grizzy you don't have to play all the spells in the same turn. What i mean is that you can play T1 Entomb, T2 reanimation spell, and if the second is countered, you can just play another reanimation spell. With rituals it's harder. To play out Bargain you need 2 rituals + Bargain (or 1 with threshold), and bargain itself is a spell. That mean that when Bargain is countered you need a lot to start again. When a reanimation spell is countered, you need only another reanimation spell. It's a far less intensive mana investment. If you include orim's chant to dodge permission, it's a 3-4 cards, 7 mana investment. If you include free counterspells, again, it's a lot more card compared to what a Reanimator deck need to play its grizzy.

Reanimator is not the deck you would play Yawgmoth's Bargain in anyway (I think so - I'm not a Reanimator player so I'm not sure). In a storm combo kind of deck, nobody's going to play Entombs and Exhumes just to draw 14 cards. The Reanimator's Griselbrand takes three turns to win the game, Bargain takes 0.

Second, Bargain is easier to hate out, just because it attack you from simply one angle. A needle stop Bargain completely cold, while it still leave a 7/7 lifelinker in the case of Grizzy. No, actually, it doesn't simply stop bargain, it stop bargain AND you skip your draw step.

Why would you even cast the Bargain when an opponent has Pithing Needle naming Bargain? Also, you win on the turn Bargain Resolves, so your opponent won't get a chance to cast a Needle unless he does it beforehand.

I would have nightmares playing Bargain off a SnT and seeing revoker on the other side of the table. That's game right there. Sure, you can point at graveyard hate and say how it is pretty cheap. I can point at the fact that Reanimator play way more permission and control cards that any storm list, and the fact that Thalia/CotV are far harder to win against when you're on storm. All in all, i still think Bargain would be easier to hate than a Grizzy (especially when you consider SnT decks and reanimator both as Grizzy decks and not just reanimator).

I would have nightmares even trying to run Show and Tell in a storm combo deck. Most of the time, the card does nothing, and when it does something, a ritual in its place would've probably done the same thing.

Bargain is relatively easy to hate, because it's a spell and it can get countered, but that's pretty much it. However, a storm combo deck can win the game without Bargain and is already used to dealing with counterspells.

Third, SnT doesn't play as well with Bargain as it does with grizzy. Why? Because in a Bargain/ritual deck SnT would accellerate only bargain, and nothing else (or it would? I don't know, i guess you could play Griselbrand also, but it would be subpar to play Grizz from rits). In reanimator and SnT decks, SnT play grizzly, but also emmy, Iona or the bounce Djinn. SnT isn't anywhere as good in a Bargain deck as it is in a SnT/Reanimator one.

And that's why you don't put in Show and Tell. Bargain is nuts even without it.

Ad Nauseam does mostly what Bargain do, at an higher average life cost per card, but costing less, at instant speed, and it's harder to hate with a simple needle/revoker. A Bargain deck would probably be a more efficient (less dead cards in the main) but easier to hate Hive Mind deck. It wouldn't break the format any more than Griselbrand did. Imho it would have even less impact. And no, i don't think Necro is comparable to Bargain in legacy. Necro can be played easily on T1, compared to T3/4 of Bargain.

Bargain lets you play FoWs in a storm combo deck, Ad Nauseam doesn't. You can run as many Bargains as you want without being in trouble when you draw a Bargain with a Bargain, but the number of Ad Nauseams should be at most 2. Turn 1 Bargains would be pretty rare, but turn 2 Bargains would be regularly seen if Bargain was legal. You're right - Necro isn't comparable to Bargain, because Necro is a card advantage engine and would be used in aggro, aggro-control and perhaps control decks and Bargain is a you-win engine and would be used in combo decks. Still, both cards are ridiculously powerful and neither should be unbanned.

[Gheizen64]

Reanimator is not the deck you would play Yawgmoth's Bargain in anyway (I think so - I'm not a Reanimator player so I'm not sure). In a storm combo kind of deck, nobody's going to play Entombs and Exhumes just to draw 14 cards. The Reanimator's Griselbrand takes three turns to win the game, Bargain takes 0.

? First, reanimator play Grizz, not Bargain. I'm not sure where u read that i'd play Bargain in reanimator, obviously it goes in Storm Combo or in a Hive Mind shell. Also, Griselbrand needing 3 turn to win and bargain needing 0 is a technicality. Drawing 7-14 with a Grizz on the board is my definition of winning on the spot.

I would have nightmares even trying to run Show and Tell in a storm combo deck. Most of the time, the card does nothing, and when it does something, a ritual in its place would've probably done the same thing.

Stop assuming i'm an idiot. When i present situations where you play SnT for Bargain it's obvious that i mean it in a Hive Mind shell, not a storm one.

Bargain is relatively easy to hate, because it's a spell and it can get countered, but that's pretty much it. However, a storm combo deck can win the game without Bargain and is already used to dealing with counterspells.

And needle effects, which Ad Nauseam is immune to.

And that's why you don't put in Show and Tell. Bargain is nuts even without it.

Again, arbitrary assumptions.

Bargain lets you play FoWs in a storm combo deck, Ad Nauseam doesn't. You can run as many Bargains as you want without being in trouble when you draw a Bargain with a Bargain, but the number of Ad Nauseams should be at most 2. Turn 1 Bargains would be pretty rare, but turn 2 Bargains would be regularly seen if Bargain was legal.

Is pact of Negation that worse in a deck that win on the fundamental turn and lose next turn anyway since you'll be at pretty low life anyway?

[frenchy-man]

Were survival.decks unbeatable ? No. Has sotf been banned ? Yes.
Are show.decks unbeatable ? No. Has show (or grisel) been banned ? No.

There is a problem with the unban/ban policy, clearly. There are no reasons to ban survival when show and tell is in the format. At all.

And don't tell me survival.decks trusted all the top 8, whereas show and tell.deck are not, because
a) in Europe we adapted to survival.decks. It was the best deck but had its predators, so that it was not dominating so much.
b) There were MUCH MORE people playing survival than show and tell players (due to the price/rarity of the cards and to the stupidity needed to play sneak.deck). That's why there are less in top 8s.

[Julian23]

I just saw someone suggested playing Griselbrand in Maverick!



Therefore, inspired by an all-time classic signature on The Source:

We got Griselbrand Reanimator, Show and Griselbrand and Griselstorm.
It probably won't end until we have decks like Grisel Stax, Griselbelcher, Griselchantress, Vial Grislings, Griselstill, Griselbrand from the Loam, Griselbrand Stompy, Grisel-Pox, Grisel Confinement, 8-Land Griselstompy, some deck built to abuse Griselbrand/Mirror Gallery/Soul Foundry/Mind over Matter/Cadaverous Bloom, and the Dave Gearhart classic, Griseldarity.
And Ichogriselrid, The Epic Griselbrand, 42land4Grisel.dec, Grisel Game and Ill-Gotten-Griselbrand.

[joemauer]

I agree with Frenchyman here.

The fact that Grisselbrand and Show and Tell are legal doesn't irk me that much. The fact that these two cards are legal while cards of similar power(or even weaker power!) remain on the b & r list. There is a serious mismanagement of the list currently.

[Kich867]

Legacy is full of cards that are "oppressive given resolution". That vaguest and most biased of terms applies to Emrakul, Tendrils of Agony, Hive Mind, Counterbalance, Nimble Mongoose, Goblin Lackey.. basically with each deck you are playing, there is a card that is "oppressive" to play against. I guess Griselbrand is your nemesis then. That is fine, now live with it.

This is absurdly untrue and I pointed out why in my post. Emrakul can actually be dealt with when cheated in or even sometimes when hardcast, Tendrils can be countered via flusterstorm or mindbreak trap or stifled, there's ways around pact triggers, enchantment destruction, sac effects, lightning bolt.

You should spend more time on your posts, not just knee-jerk a response off of one sentence.

The reason Griselbrand is oppressive to play against is because he is actually almost impossible to realistically deal with. Unless your opponent is already at something like 8 life, which is unlikely on turn 2 outside of reanimating him, any attempt to remove him is met by drawing anywhere from 7 to 14 cards and dealing with it. Did you honestly just put Goblin Lackey down as an oppressive card to deal with? Llanowar Elf trades with it, you can Gutshot it, sword it, bolt it, in no way shape or form is Goblin Lackey "oppressive" if it resolves. It's not even oppressive if it hits you the game is far from over.

Griselbrand on the other hand? You have to have more removal or more counters than they do in Their Hand + 7 or 14 cards. It's incredibly unrealistic to expect someone to have enough juice to kill Griselbrand in their ~4-5 card hand against an opponent with ~11-18 cards in hand.

[CorpT]

This is absurdly untrue and I pointed out why in my post. Emrakul can actually be dealt with when cheated in or even sometimes when hardcast, Tendrils can be countered via flusterstorm or mindbreak trap or stifled, there's ways around pact triggers, enchantment destruction, sac effects, lightning bolt.

You should spend more time on your posts, not just knee-jerk a response off of one sentence.

The reason Griselbrand is oppressive to play against is because he is actually almost impossible to realistically deal with. Unless your opponent is already at something like 8 life, which is unlikely on turn 2 outside of reanimating him, any attempt to remove him is met by drawing anywhere from 7 to 14 cards and dealing with it. Did you honestly just put Goblin Lackey down as an oppressive card to deal with? Llanowar Elf trades with it, you can Gutshot it, sword it, bolt it, in no way shape or form is Goblin Lackey "oppressive" if it resolves. It's not even oppressive if it hits you the game is far from over.

Griselbrand on the other hand? You have to have more removal or more counters than they do in Their Hand + 7 or 14 cards. It's incredibly unrealistic to expect someone to have enough juice to kill Griselbrand in their ~4-5 card hand against an opponent with ~11-18 cards in hand.

So why isn't Griselbrand dominating everything?

The fact is, people figured out a lot of ways to either deal with Griselbrand and/or prevent it from coming into play. You should look at recent results for examples of this.

[rxavage]

I'm a big fan of "Ill-Gotten-Griselbrand". Seriously we're back to this now?

[frenchy-man]

So why isn't Griselbrand dominating everything?

The fact is, people figured out a lot of ways to either deal with Griselbrand and/or prevent it from coming into play. You should look at recent results for examples of this.

Did you read my post just above ?

[CorpT]

Did you read my post just above ?

So Griselbrand should be banned because Survival was banned?

[Kich867]

So why isn't Griselbrand dominating everything?

The fact is, people figured out a lot of ways to either deal with Griselbrand and/or prevent it from coming into play. You should look at recent results for examples of this.

Refer to my previous post, we can't possibly keep going in circles like this. It's not that Griselbrand is easy to deal with or even realistically possible to deal with, it's that cheating him into play can sometimes be dealt with. They can't always have a perfect hand. Recent results show that the decks that run Griselbrand are actually pretty good and can make it pretty far.

Sneak and Show / Reanimator are decks that are intensely hated out and/or have some consistency issues. Sneak and Show occasionally just collapses on itself. But this is independent of Griselbrand.

People are too often looking at the deck this card is in and not the card itself, which doesn't make any sense. A card's power level is independent of the deck that runs it and can only be amplified by that deck. Griselbrand is an absurdly overpowered card outside of the decks that run him and gets even better when you play him for 1, 2, or 3 mana. The decks that run him may not be despite that because the deck itself's power level is only as good as it's ability to put Griselbrand into play. Sneak and Show is very all-in and after it casts Show and Tell or Sneak Attack they likely can muster up a Force of Will or if they were patient a FOW and a Spell Pierce. Some decks can actually deal with that relatively easily: depending on the turn you might be able to just pierce it, daze it, and pay for pierce on your own. They often blow their hand on it. That has nothing to do with Griselbrand though, Gbrand doesn't influence that outcome, right?

Same with reanimator. It's hated out. Sometimes it just can't get there because of a Scavenging Ooze or something. But Griselbrand has no influence on that situation. Him being in the deck doesn't elevate the deck to a dominating performance: only when he's actually on the table.

You see we have these cards that hate out strategies, but Griselbrand isn't a strategy, he's an enabler and a win condition simultaneously. In the event he does resolve, stopping him is nearly impossible. The only moderately good "answer" is karakas, which delays him, but really doesn't because he drew 7 in response. It's also unlikely to even run into your karakas unless you're Death and Taxes; Maverick would need, at best, turn 3 to be able to fetch it and use it, which is probably your best bet. However, drawing 7 to, in Reanimator's case: discard your xyz fatties / entomb/exhume more out and in Sneak and Show's case: drop sneak attack and overwhelm karakas.

So I mean is that clear enough of an explanation as to why I feel that he should be banned? That he is extremely overpowered, but the decks that run him aren't, and irrespective of the deck he's in, Griselbrand is just too powerful of a creature to exist? Like a lot of people are pointing to tournament results and yada yada--I don't really care about that, that isn't what is important, it's objectively analyzing this card and recognizing that at it's core it's way too fucking good and it's only a matter of time until someone finds a way to more realistically abuse him that doesn't kill themselves doing it, is very consistent, and/or isn't symmetrical.

[frenchy-man]

So Griselbrand should be banned because Survival was banned?

Read more of my post.

[CorpT]

Read more of my post.

Be more clear.

[Kich867]

Be more clear.

Can we all please stop with the shitty 3 word sentence posts? It actually -feels- socially awkward reading it and bleeds of basementism. It's embarrassing to the forum to see how many retarded witty-one-liner-gotcha's have populated the last few pages of this thread.

But hey, zingers! Got 'em!

..

And, to be clear, Frenchy-man's post to me implies that he wants Survival to be unbanned because of the same reasons you are arguing that G-Brand shouldn't be banned. It seems ironic that you're hassling him about it.