All B/R update speculation.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Well, I wouldn't expect anyhting else then Bargain being better in a Bargain deck then Griselbrand. If Griselbrand was better then Bargain in a deck called Exhume BARGAIN then we wouldn't be discussing anything here.

The point with this list was to show that your requirements to compare both cards - them being interchangeable in any given list - is stupid.

Also, we do not have too many examples of Bargain decks, do we? There were Exhume Bargain, Sabre Bargain, Replenish Bargain, Turnabout Bargain... anything else? Therefore, you insisting on having an interchangeable list makes even less sense.
There is vintage but then yes, we can't compare those.

Enchantments are so much easier to remove then creatures that it is not even funny. Creatures have this mystical status in Magic that we have a R instant destroy target artifact, we have G instant destroy target enchantment amongst MANY other instant, cheap options while for creatures we are stuck with StP, a very good option indeed, but almost the only one.

I'm not the one trying to compare Bargain and Griselbrand. So the point of me asking for a deck where they are interchangeable was supposed to illustrate how different the cards were when you couldn't do it (also feel free to invent a list where they are interchangeable in the world where Bargain is unbanned in Legacy). The point is stop talking about Bargain, it has nothing to do with GBrand being banned or unbanned.

[Richard Cheese]

Stuff

There isn't any instant speed reanimation

Goryo's Vengeance and Shallow Grave would like a word.

Also, think about it... You have an enabler to get Y. Bargain into play for 3.. And then you can ALSO ritual accelerate into Y. Bargain, or just cast it naturally. You cannot do these things with Grizz. Counter the enablers, and he sits in your hand smiling at you with that devilish grin of his.. and thats all he does.

So...you can cast rituals and get to 7 but not 8? Also other than replenish, what digs Bargain out of your graveyard and puts it directly into play? There are at least 5 ways to do this with Grizzlebee, in addition to Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, and Through the Breach, Loyal Retainers, etc.

This means Force of Will can be played along side your storm engine. Turn 1 discard/cantrip, turn 2 Bargain Force protection? Every game? Pretty much.

Can't do that with Griselbrand?

Its a degenerate card. Griselbrand might be a shitty card to play against because its so damn powerful if it resolves. Its still much easier to stop from resolving and when it does resolve, there are more than plenty of answers for it. People maindeck Scavenging Ooze, Karakas, even Goblins has maindeck Matron-->Stingscourer. Its not like the opponent just folds like they do when your opponent gets up on the table and shits all over your side of the table with Y. Bargain. Also, Gilded Drake is a fantastic answer. I've been playing it for a while now as a sideboard card in various decks. Don't know why it took so long to catch on. There are plenty of other answers as well, not limited to spot removal spells. Removing an enchantment is much more difficult to remove as most decks play spot removal for creatures; enchantments, not so much.

I agree that Bargain is probably a stronger card overall, but it seems like you're just looking at him as another fatty and missing the combo applications. Karakas, StP, Drake are all fairly inconsequential when you plan on winning the turn Griz hits play. I just don't think people are giving him enough credit as a combo piece. The simple fact is that he's only 1 extra mana over Bargain, has far more ways to cheat into play, can draw you up to 21 cards immediately, and can reduce your needed storm count by 3-4.

[dontbiteitholmes]

So...you can cast rituals and get to 7 but not 8?

I agree that Bargain is probably a stronger card overall, but it seems like you're just looking at him as another fatty and missing the combo applications. Karakas, StP, Drake are all fairly inconsequential when you plan on winning the turn Griz hits play. I just don't think people are giving him enough credit as a combo piece. The simple fact is that he's only 1 extra mana over Bargain, has far more ways to cheat into play, can draw you up to 21 cards immediately, and can reduce your needed storm count by 3-4.

Bargain costs 6 chief, RTFC.

[joemauer]

There is so much wrong with Grisselbrand and it has nothing to do with drawing cards. Lifelink should have been strictly for Black colors from a Flavor standpoint, I mean it is a drain effect and that isn't really what Holy magic does. Also why call it lifelink when it's draining you. So as we can see it ruins the color pie balance. Speaking of flavor. Also, Why arent there any female Demons? Angels get to be chicks, why not demons? We all know women are evil and If you have a mother, Sister, or Girlfriend you'll know this to be a universal truth. That is what I find wrong with Grisselbrand.

TLDR: It should have been a woman and and Drain Life should only have ever been on Black or white, not both.

The biggest problem with Grislebrand is his spelling. Who made up such a counterintuitive spelling that won't ever get fixed with spell checkers?

[menace13]

The biggest problem with Grislebrand is his spelling. Who made up such a counterintuitive spelling that won't ever get fixed with spell checkers?

That must be the British and yet another way that they have contributed to ruining the world.

[from Cairo]

The biggest problem with Grislebrand is his spelling. Who made up such a counterintuitive spelling that won't ever get fixed with spell checkers?

... it's spelled Griselbrand.

While I agree the card is great. I will even give it that it's format-warping, top 8 evidence is showing it to be beatable, apparently by a plethora of decks because results are showing archetypes as diverse as ever. Stop crying about the demon and start tuning lists that can interact with him.

[joemauer]

... it's spelled Griselbrand.

While I agree the card is great. I will even give it that it's format-warping, top 8 evidence is showing it to be beatable, apparently by a plethora of decks because results are showing archetypes as diverse as ever. Stop crying about the demon and start tuning lists that can interact with him.

There are plenty of beatable cards that are banned in Legacy. Why are they staying on the banned list while Grizelbrand and Show & Tell remain legal? Seems bizzaro to me.


Also, Grisslebrand is spelled about a dozen different ways in these forums. Anyone else notice that?

[Vacrix]

Goryo's Vengeance and Shallow Grave are instant speed Reanimation that see exactly 0 top8's. There's instant speed discard too but people still talk about it being printed for a reason.

7 vs. 8 can be huge. Just do the math on black rituals. Also, getting to 7 for Belcher easy each because you use LED to go the rest of the way. IT + 2 mana + double LED is a lot easier than 4 mana + IT + double LED. That means you need IMS, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, IT, + LED x2, vs. IMS, IMS, LED x2, IT.... Basically, Griselbrand is crap without an enabler and he's not coming into play off ritual acceleration.

Griselbrand gets played in a deck that plays Force of Will... yes.... Keep in mind it also doesn't win on THAT turn. It draws a bunch of cards to find some protection but Y. Bargain does win. You can even break their inevitability by playing Grieselbrand after it comes down, but thats much harder to do when Y. Bargain is geared to win the turn it comes down, though you can slow play with it just as easily as you can with Griesel. Also, being able to pay 1 life vs. pay 7 can be huge if you are at 7 or less life and need a few cards to get there against a non-R deck.

As a combo piece, Grieselbrand securs your win much in the same way that Jin-Gitaxsis does, only its a much better fatty. I don't know of a deck that allows you to win the turn Grieselbrand comes down. If you are looking at them in some sort of vacuum where you drop either one off SnT, and then draw a storm deck.... sure. But you have to keep this is not the case. You can't reliably cast Jizz; you need an enabler. You can reliably cast Y. Bargain. Hell you could do it with Lands and IMS's if they tried to cut you off ritual acceleration with Spell Pierce, Daze, etc.



Also, take a look at how Y. Bargain differs from Ad Nauseam in terms of going off. If you have even like 9+ life.. you have an ensured kill. Play, sacrifice it for BBB, draw another card... can't do this with AdN and it makes going off a hell of a lot easier.

[evanmartyr]

There are plenty of beatable cards that are banned in Legacy. Why are they staying on the banned list while Grizelbrand and Show & Tell remain legal? Seems bizzaro to me.


Also, Grisslebrand is spelled about a dozen different ways in these forums. Anyone else notice that?

Probably because they're not creatures. Honestly. (Almost) Every time a stupid powerful creature gets printed, it gets to stay legal, because despite Legacy having a reputation as a combo-ridden format, a massive portion of competitive decks still rely on the red zone to win. Creature removal is a thing in this format. For the most part, Erase and Disenchant are not, and forcing people to find faster answers to more varied threats leads to a format where the "problem" has to be answered and no-one can have a rounded sideboard and reasonable chances against their other bad matchups.

Earthcraft is acceleration for Solitaire that ends up as part of a win condition. It's not legal almost entirely for that reason alone; most decks would have to remove it but that would mean most decks would have to play narrow answers to it, in a format that discourages narrow answers to anything.

Land Tax, at least, is slow, play-aroundable, and about the most effective thing you can do with it is throw 6 damage around a turn with Seismic Assault. That's not ban-worthy.

That's not to say that Show and Tell shouldn't get the axe. The card has been enabling simplistic strategies for far too long, and every time they print another OP permanent it gets closer and closer to being the Yawgmoth's Will of Legacy.

[Richard Cheese]

Goryo's Vengeance and Shallow Grave are instant speed Reanimation that see exactly 0 top8's. There's instant speed discard too but people still talk about it being printed for a reason.

7 vs. 8 can be huge. Just do the math on black rituals. Also, getting to 7 for Belcher easy each because you use LED to go the rest of the way. IT + 2 mana + double LED is a lot easier than 4 mana + IT + double LED. That means you need IMS, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, IT, + LED x2, vs. IMS, IMS, LED x2, IT.... Basically, Griselbrand is crap without an enabler and he's not coming into play off ritual acceleration.

Griselbrand gets played in a deck that plays Force of Will... yes.... Keep in mind it also doesn't win on THAT turn. It draws a bunch of cards to find some protection but Y. Bargain does win. You can even break their inevitability by playing Grieselbrand after it comes down, but thats much harder to do when Y. Bargain is geared to win the turn it comes down, though you can slow play with it just as easily as you can with Griesel. Also, being able to pay 1 life vs. pay 7 can be huge if you are at 7 or less life and need a few cards to get there against a non-R deck.

As a combo piece, Grieselbrand securs your win much in the same way that Jin-Gitaxsis does, only its a much better fatty. I don't know of a deck that allows you to win the turn Grieselbrand comes down. If you are looking at them in some sort of vacuum where you drop either one off SnT, and then draw a storm deck.... sure. But you have to keep this is not the case. You can't reliably cast Jizz; you need an enabler. You can reliably cast Y. Bargain. Hell you could do it with Lands and IMS's if they tried to cut you off ritual acceleration with Spell Pierce, Daze, etc.


Also, take a look at how Y. Bargain differs from Ad Nauseam in terms of going off. If you have even like 9+ life.. you have an ensured kill. Play, sacrifice it for BBB, draw another card... can't do this with AdN and it makes going off a hell of a lot easier.

Oh right, if it doesn't top 8, it doesn't exist.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-Count-Chocula!

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...animator-Storm)

Both made day 2 at Atlanta, brand new decks, relatively untested. Maybe that's not as significant as I think it is, but I still think he deserves more consideration in a combo context than as just another fatty.

My bad on the 6 vs. 7 thing, thanks for advancing the conversation though, chief!

[rxavage]

We all know women are evil and If you have a mother, Sister, or Girlfriend you'll know this to be a universal truth. That is what I find wrong with Grisselbrand.

TLDR: It should have been a woman and and Drain Life should only have ever been on Black or white, not both.

QFT

Thanks for the sig.

[Julian23]

Can just please continue discussing the spelling of said card instead of its applications? That was much more fun!

Ok, without looking, I'll try: Griselbrand, amidoinitrit ?!

[Tammit67]

As I pointed out in my thought experiment I posted previously: if there was a card that had no answer and won you the game upon resolution, but could only fit into the hardest, most complicated deck that has ever been constructed to play, I would advocate the banning of that card despite it having poor performance given the deck's difficulty to play.

I am also not a fan of cards that are both win conditions and enablers. In history, cards that are banned are generally enablers and they leave the win conditions alone. Griselbrand is both.

Sounds a lot like doomsday to me

[dragonwisdom]

stop banning cards. They need to unban them.

Griselbrand is fair

If you don't play graveyard hate, that is the price you pay.

ShowNtell is also balanced.

Not only do you lose a card but your opponent gets to put something down for free. You payed 3 mana for it.

Survival needs to be unbanned. Earthcraft needs to be unbanned and maybe just maybe mind twist.

[Kich867]

stop banning cards. They need to unban them.

Griselbrand is fair

If you don't play graveyard hate, that is the price you pay.

ShowNtell is also balanced.

Not only do you lose a card but your opponent gets to put something down for free. You payed 3 mana for it.

Survival needs to be unbanned. Earthcraft needs to be unbanned and maybe just maybe mind twist.

Show and Tell would be a lot more balanced if the thing the other guy put into play was as powerful as what you were putting into play.

So I guess it's balanced in the sense that a see-saw is balanced when a fat kid is on one side and a skinny kid is on the other. That seems to be a skewed sense of balance.

I don't see how people can make the logical leap that because Reanimator / show and tell are balanced decks that Griselbrand is by extension balanced. Those decks are balanced around the concept of not letting that fatty resolve, you're arguing that he's balanced because he isn't in play...to me it just makes the inverse true.

[dragonwisdom]

So if your playing zoo or maverick, you need to play knight of the reliquary.
or wait you can play Oblivion ring in the main.

There are many powerful cards, but legacy is full of them and there are answers to just about everything.

Stax will play ensnaring bridge
control will play humility and karakas
maverick will play knight and karakas

As far as the seasaw goes, that is the combo. They play with 8-10 dead cards in their deck, while every card in Maverick or Rug is optimal.

[Tammit67]

Show and Tell would be a lot more balanced if the thing the other guy put into play was as powerful as what you were putting into play.

Well, to be fair, they have to have show and tell and something to put into play, so should you answer what they have, you are up in CA. I don't think we are at the point where the deck is unanswerable.

Does it require specific attention when choosing a 75? Of course. That's what a tiered deck does

[Kich867]

Well, to be fair, they have to have show and tell and something to put into play, so should you answer what they have, you are up in CA. I don't think we are at the point where the deck is unanswerable.

Does it require specific attention when choosing a 75? Of course. That's what a tiered deck does

I don't believe the deck is unanswerable, I feel that Griselband is very close to it though.

[Pippin]

So if your playing zoo or maverick, you need to play knight of the reliquary.
or wait you can play Oblivion ring in the main.

There are many powerful cards, but legacy is full of them and there are answers to just about everything.

Stax will play ensnaring bridge
control will play humility and karakas
maverick will play knight and karakas

As far as the seasaw goes, that is the combo. They play with 8-10 dead cards in their deck, while every card in Maverick or Rug is optimal.

All the above mentioned answers aren't reliable enough to have them as "absolute answer". You need a specific scenario for them to work - aka Griselbrand player being on low life (Maverick case), or Griselbrand player having no permission/disruption. It does happen, but it's not reliable.

stop banning cards. They need to unban them.

Griselbrand is fair

If you don't play graveyard hate, that is the price you pay.

ShowNtell is also balanced.

Not only do you lose a card but your opponent gets to put something down for free. You payed 3 mana for it.

Survival needs to be unbanned. Earthcraft needs to be unbanned and maybe just maybe mind twist.

Completely agree. With Griselbrand staying legal we can have both Yawgmoth's Bargain and Necropotence coming of the ban list. As dragonwisdom put it - "There are many powerful cards, but legacy is full of them and there are answers to just about everything." We have counterspells/pithing needle effects to deal with Necropotence. Lets take it from the ban list, amrite?
And for those saying that Necropotence/Y. Bargain is easy to put into play - so is Griselbrand, and this doesn't involve just reanimation effects.

[DLifshitz]

With Griselbrand staying legal we can have both Yawgmoth's Bargain and Necropotence coming of the ban list.

Yeah, that should get us rid of all those worthless aggro players. Since all they ever do is whine about cards/decks they think they can't beat, and they're too obstinate to adapt to the evolving format, it's just going to make the it a more pleasant experience for the rest of us. There's been too much bending over backwards to please them scum anyway, between banning MT, Survival, and MM, perfectly fine cards all of them.