[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

[nitewolf9]

I'm pretty sure Thoughtseize is just better right now, as you really want to nab swords against maverick in order to race them, it resolves more often against rug, and it is better with Temporal mastery as it costs less and can be played usually the turn you mastery if you have to do it early.

I'm also trying an Island instead of the 9th fetch (obv playing 4 misty/4 delta now) in order to more effectively set up mastery through wastelands. Seems fine so far, haven't really had much trouble with the manabase with the 1 basic. Also nice to give path a drawback.

[wcm8]

I'm pretty sure Thoughtseize is just better right now, as you really want to nab swords against maverick in order to race them, it resolves more often against rug, and it is better with Temporal mastery as it costs less and can be played usually the turn you mastery if you have to do it early.

I'm also trying an Island instead of the 9th fetch (obv playing 4 misty/4 delta now) in order to more effectively set up mastery through wastelands. Seems fine so far, haven't really had much trouble with the manabase with the 1 basic. Also nice to give path a drawback.

Seems reasonable. What about fitting in a basic Swamp as well? I could see cutting a Wasteland for the Swamp being a possibility. I definitely wouldn't want to drop below 8 fetchlands though.

Any new SB tech? Have you considered adding Jace back in the 75?

[Blitzbold]

Seems reasonable. What about fitting in a basic Swamp as well? I could see cutting a Wasteland for the Swamp being a possibility. I definitely wouldn't want to drop below 8 fetchlands though.

I changed the manabase a bit since there are a lot of Wastelands in my area. Maybe I am just to cautious, but the manabase worked pretty well during my games:

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island (might switch one for another Misty Rainforest)
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs

The reason for just 3 UG Seas? Pimping the deck. I only own 3 bb Seas at the moment. :)

There you are. -1 Tropical, +1 Misty Rainforest means 6 duals, 2 basics, 8 fetch, 4 Wasteland

Any new SB tech? Have you considered adding Jace back in the 75?

Jace would be ultra sweet, as he were another guy massively profiting from taking extra turns. 4 cmc in a deck with Dazes doesn't seem that hot, though.

The Virtue's Ruin Caleb suggested seems reasonable if you expect some Maverick. Dan also mentioned in his deck tech that the matchups against fast red-based decks aren't that good (Burn, UR Delver and probably Goblins as well), so I considered 1-2 Blue Elemental Blasts. Misdirecting burn to one of their creatures would be nice as well, but I this might be a bit too fancy.

I'd never leave home with less than 4 graveyard hate, 4-6 additional removal depending on the expected meta (Edicts, Darkblast, Massacre, Virtue's Ruin, Dread of Night...) and some Spell Pierces (I'd love to fit 2 of them main), which leaves 2-4 meta-dependant slots.


As for the mainbord, did any of you consider playing 1-2 Vendilion Cliques? It would be another way to play Temporal Mastery on the opponent's turn, even though this would require 5 mana.

[Oxmo39]

Has anyone had any issue with the low amount of cheap removal in the MD (in the TP build) ?
The only slot that could be switched for this extra removal would be Lili & the pulse...i still don't know if the cheaper/faster factor should be prevalent over versatily...
I often wished the pulse in my hand was a hard removal, though it is sweet to have an out MD against an equipment or a PW.
Any thoughts about that from more expercienced players with this deck ?

I know the aim of the deck is to drop a flyier and ride it to victory, and just deal with the critters that really threaten my game plan, but i nearly always want/need a removal in my first 7...or am i missing sth ?

[Blitzbold]

Has anyone had any issue with the low amount of cheap removal in the MD (in the TP build) ?
The only slot that could be switched for this extra removal would be Lili & the pulse...i still don't know if the cheaper/faster factor should be prevalent over versatily...
I often wished the pulse in my hand was a hard removal, though it is sweet to have an out MD against an equipment or a PW.
Any thoughts about that from more expercienced players with this deck ?

I know the aim of the deck is to drop a flyier and ride it to victory, and just deal with the critters that really threaten my game plan, but i nearly always want/need a removal in my first 7...or am i missing sth ?

I went through some (pre-board) test games vs. Merfolk for about 2.5 hours. This can get quite rough, dependant on their and your hand. Getting overrun by a horde of pumped Islandwalkers happens pretty regularily, and additional removal would be nice here. Fast flyers + Goyf + counter for the lord usually gets us there, though.

There are a lot of options for removal out of the board, and although the removal suite used by Dan and the Hatfields might be best for an unknown and broard field, you'd better adjust it for your local metagame. For example, I was thinking of bringing 1-2 Engineered Plagues.


Another matchup I found to be very problematic is against UW Miracle control. Preboard it's even or slightly positive, but postboard their deck consists of removal, removal, removal, cantrips, CB + Top, Jaces and Entreats. The only reliable way of winning here seems to be riding Liliana of the Veil, as I didn't manage to get in more than 12-15 damage via creatures on a regular basis. I am therefore considering a second Liliana in the board (Maindeck is tight as it is).

Boarding is difficult, though, as you want your Spell Pierces as well as Pulse and EE to deal with tokens, CB, Jace or even Oblivion Ring. Tempo counters aren't very effective here as they usually manage to survive into the mid- to lategame, where Daze obv. sucks and Spell Pierce probably only gets a greedy spell of them. Maybe it's right to leave the TMs in here, as it it's your best way to out-tempo them.

Contrary to fighting traditional control, even Thoughseize doesn' seem to be that hot postboard, as they are able to live from the top of their deck if they got a SDT into play. All in all this feels like a pretty rough matchup.

[Oxmo39]

thanks for your answer.
i still don't know how to adapt my sb for all aggro MU's with the tribal decks coming back. I hope to get some time this week.

About the UW match up, i hadn't any chance to test this MU but i expected it to be difficult...
But before siding in extra Liliana, i'd consider Jace. Sure we run only 20 lands (you play 2 basics), but combined with 10 cantrips + sylvan library, you should be able to cast him. Furthermore, they don't play wasteland and dazes will be out.

I await a lot of UW decks at the GP ( i guess you're also preparing to it), hence i'd really like to give some SB slots to this MU, and besides Jace, i don't really see what else I could bring...
Jace is also useful against esper decks which should be strongly represented as well.

[Goddik]

Key to beating merfolk is Jace + Deed+ plenty of removal. Goblins used to be a pretty good matchup and the absence of stifle and hymn shouldn't hurt that much. The big change if other aggro decks start to become popular is to switch the massacres and perishes to deeds and ghastly demises. I would start any TA sideboard with 2-4 sweepers, 2 spot removals and 2 Jace. It has historically been really good against both merfolk and maverick

[Goddik]

Deed, Pulse and explosives are all really good against the miracle deck as they deal with the tokens and counterbalance, so gearing your removal in the sideboard in that direction will help.

I played something quite close to spikes list at the first tournament at BOM this year and the pulses were definately nice. The matchup against U/W is about 50/50, so not as scary as you think, but not perfect either

Another idea is to play stifle again, i imagine that would do wonders in the matchup. An oldschool list with stifle and hymn should have no trouble against the miracle deck. I am actually considering returning to that (if i wasn't on BUG control) as i think it beats most of the meta except for maverick and you loose that matchup preboard anyway.

I would start testing with this list


2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Snuff Out
1 Sylvan Library
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
3 Stifle
2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 2 Ghastly Demise
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 2 Sower of Temptation
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed

The explosives could be lilianas if you want something that is relevant against combo.

[Blitzbold]

Sorry, I was talking about the version featuring Temporal Mastery.

[Tombstalker]

My removal suite right now is 2 snuff out 2 edict 1 darkblast (2 Liliana) and its been good. I've also been boarding pithing needles lately and they have been surprisingly good. I agree the sb should start with 3-4 sweepers.

[wcm8]

Went a miserable 2-2 at yesterday's event. I lost 0-2 to RUG (just could not find removal or resolve a Tombstalker, and G2 got choked on mana) and 0-2 vs. that new RBw Zombies deck (none of our removal is very effective, and eventually they can get the life gain combo out and undo all the Delver beats).

I did beat Show and Tell 2-0 and BW Death and Taxes 2-0. SnT was just a matter of resolving a few Thoughtseizes and having timely Wastelands, Dazes, etc. Death and Taxes is not typically an easy matchup, but I was able to race with a Tombstalker in the first game, and the second game, well... The second game was pretty epic.

He had an active Bitterblossom, a few Spirit Tokens (via Lingering Souls), a Stoneforge Mystic, and a Jitte with 4 counters on it equipped to a Faerie token. My board was mostly empty except for a Sylvan library and about 4 lands. Essentially what happened was I manipulated my hand and library for the next five turns (YES, FIVE) by casting all of my Temporal Masteries, first by resolving a Tombstalker, then resolving a Massacre to clear his board (he was already forced to gain life from Jitte to stay alive), and then sealing the deal with a second Tombstalker and the 4th Temporal Mastery. I ended the game at 1 life (drew a couple extra cards from Sylvan).

This sort of game state is unlikely, but it does go to show that TM can really help out against those matchups based on attrition.

That said, I think a board control version of BUG would have been a better choice for the day, as it seems like my local metagame has a fair amount of aggro decks running around.

Alternatively, I would consider reconfiguring the SB to better handle a wider range of decks. I'm also thinking that as good as TM is, the deck as a whole might function better if we drop down to 2-3 copies (and maybe also cut a Portent) and play a bit more removal or increase the Daze/Discard count.

[colo]

He had an active Bitterblossom, a few Spirit Tokens (via Lingering Souls), a Stoneforge Mystic, and a Jitte with 4 counters on it equipped to a Faerie token.

Nitpicking here, because it's about two of my favourite decks (TA and DnT): whatever you played against, it was not Death and Taxes. From the cards you mentioned, it sounds more like BW StoneBlade.

[Zand]

Hey guys, just picking up this deck. I love the concept of Hymns and pressure and this seems like the best place to start. Why hasn't this deck picked up Scavenging Ooze yet? If not in the main deck, at least the sideboard?

[Spike]

I like Scavening Ooze a lot in the sideboard cause its a big trump against Canadian and other creature decks like Maverick. Because we are not exiling our opponents creatures but actually killing them with black removal and also hitting them with our discard, the Ooze will have a lot to eat and therefore helps us stabilize and control the board. I´m also a fan of 1-2 Jitte in the SB when you´re playing Ooze. That package has served me well during testing and it improves the Maverick and Canadian matchup a lot, while Oooze still being a powerful card against graveyard strategies.

[apistat_commander]

Here is a build I am considering:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Ghastly
2 Snuff Out

2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder
1 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Sylvan Library

4 Sea
3 Trop
1 Island
8 Fetch
4 Waste

I don't really know about my sideboard yet. My meta consists of RUG, Esper Stoneblade, Miracles, Goblins, Sneak/Show, Nic Fit, and Maverick. No GY based decks and very little combo. Thoughts?

[Zand]

Recently piloted a Tombstalker version of the list to a top 8 finish at a 50 man tourney. If the various Show and Tell decks become more popular then this deck is definitely positioned well, they struggle in the face of disruption with efficient threats.


I tried a Venser, Shaper Savant in the sideboard as a Show and Tell catch-all and he was pretty good, what do you guys think?

How has the Mongoose version of the deck been going?

[CookedChestnuts]

How has the Mongoose version of the deck been going?

I don't think the Mongoose version of this deck is where you want to be right now. Any deck playing Nimble Mongoose that isn't Canadian Threshold is doing it wrong in my opinion. Canadian Threshold is very good at dealing exactly 20 damage, and without burn in the deck, Nimble Mongoose isn't nearly as good. Usually a blocker comes for Nimble Mongoose around turns 3-4, which is normally when you first get threshold. Unless you also have a Delver beating in the entire time, then it's difficult to finish the game. A larger threat like Tombstalker is a lot more efficient for closing games than Nimble Mongoose is because of the lack of burn.

[reev_]

Here is a build I am considering:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Ghastly
2 Snuff Out

2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder
1 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Sylvan Library

4 Sea
3 Trop
1 Island
8 Fetch
4 Waste

I don't really know about my sideboard yet. My meta consists of RUG, Esper Stoneblade, Miracles, Goblins, Sneak/Show, Nic Fit, and Maverick. No GY based decks and very little combo. Thoughts?

I've running this, which seems very close to your version:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Spell Pierce
3 Go for the Throat
1 Darkblast

2 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Ponder

1 Life from the Loam

4 Sea
3 Trop
1 Island
8 Fetch
4 Waste

SB:
3 Pernicious deed
1 Perish
2 Extirpate
3 Grafdiger's Cage
3 Hydroblast
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Ghastly Demise

Also, i'm testing a single Ooze (3 goyfs). Seems pretty good to me, and I made some good things with this list.

[xfxf]

Guys, I'm looking at GerryT's BUG Death's Shadow list and it looks a lot like Team America as we know it but with the difference of Tombstalker-Death's Shadow. Getting a Tombstalker swords'ed is a big deal whereas getting a Death's Shadow swords'ed is a smaller hit on your commitment. Do you guys think the flying of Tombstalker still makes it a better choice in a BUG tempo deck? For reference here's the list:

4 Death's Shadow
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf

3 Sylvan Library

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will
3 Snuff Out


4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

1 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
1 Watery Grave

[azador]

@Bilb_o, I personally do believe that the fact that tombstalker flies is huge. In many instances against creature decks the game ends due to everyone's favorite 5/5 flier. Furthermore, I feel that death's shadow is actively bad against said creature decks not to mention any deck slinging red spells. He just pushes us to do even more damage to ourselves than we already do, if he trampled I'd be all over it though. Evasion is sweet.

While on the note of advocating tombstalker, I'd like to say I've been doing very well lately with good 'ole TA at my local 4 round events. I sleeved it back up after a bit of a hiatus 3 weeks ago and have since posted a 9-2-1 record. One loss was to elves, I punted hard, my fault. The other was to SneakyShow where he, in his own words "drew like a fiend." The nine wins included the same Elf player, same SneakyShow player, Mono-red painter, Bant, Gobbos, Burn, Affinity, Esperblade, and Mono Black. The draw was intentional, and against the same Mono Red Painter deck.

I'm super stoked this thread has had life breathed back into it the last couple days. Obligatory list is as follows:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat
1 Snuff Out
1 Dismember

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

SB:
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Spell Pierce
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique

It took me a while to jump on the Delver train, after losing to it a few times thanks to Canadian Thresh I decided I may as well. Love it, I know it's old news now, but I haven't played a deck with creatures in a while until these last few weeks. A one drop that gives free wins is tough to ignore, which brings me to my next point.

Stifle. Why hasn't it been getting much love as of late? The lists being posted aren't running it, the number of free wins I get off the card is nuts, am I missing something here? Or is it a strictly preference thing?