@mmmetaphor
1) hmmm, i will take this as a simple comparison:
land: vindicate--yes, pulse--no
single non-land pernament: vindicate--yes, pulse--yes
multiple non-land pernament (same name): vindicate--no, maelstrom pulse--yes
althought both cards can hit non-land pernaments but in application pulse gave you board position that will take you a lead in a game, can knock down not only tokens but couple of copies like tarmogoyfs or pernaments that are so annoying like chalices for X=1, X=2 you can hit them, that is the power level of pulse over vindicate, screwing lands are not that so typical today cuz many decks run many lands :)
2) against dredge, if that is your MB that is OK, if that is your tutor targets that is OK as well, but i dont like loaming shaman it is only 1-time use unlike in ooze you can hit their DR targets and etc.
@ ryn_ball
About Pulse, I feel the same. Sometimes a pulse over a vindicate is the difference between winning or losing a game.
Hymn vs goblins I do feel the same way, instead of trying to hinder their progress it's simply better to play a card that wins the game (a single plague does the job, since he'll try to cast matron anyway to fetch his lord, and once he's stp'ed away there's not much he can do).
But against most control decks, I play -4 hymn + 2 duress. Easier to dodge counters, and takes away things that must never fall on the field (like Jace). Depending on the deck I also add cards like choke and thrun, and if it's a deck that run few threats, extirpate and surgical. But then again, it's my aproach, I may be downright wrong.
@mmmetaphor
Vs dredge you can always run bojuka bog, tutorable by knight, as well as tormod's/spellbomb and surgical/extirpate. Pulse and deed are also great in this match.
Gentleman, Junk placed 8th at GP Ghent. Time to break out the $200 Scotch.
-Matt
You're a little late! Still, pretty awesome huh? Upon studying the list, something finally clicked for me. It's not a Lingering Souls version of Rock. It's Liliana Rock. The whole deck is built around her. She must be quite the powerhouse. I think I really need to get my paws on some and take her for a spin.
@ Sug:
Your plan for Goblins is not bad at all. It's the one MU I can think of where they have the highest chance of making Hymn a dead card (topdeck any ringleader or tutor into ringleader, and bam). I'm glad you now understand how Hymn is good against non-ridiculous-amount-of-pressure decks!
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Referring to the art on Stasis:
Hahahah I really don't wanna start a flamewar here since it'd be childish and there's no point in doing it on a place full of great people like you all, but... read back some pages and I was the one saying hymn was great, despite most were saying otherwise.
Come to think of the "Liliana Rock" idea, building the deck around her makes that list much better. Still, it seems much more defensive than offensive.
Too bad, flame war challenge accepted. I'm coming at you with ALL the trolls!Anyways, Hymn support hi five!
Well look at the list. There's no WAY that could be misconstrued to be offensive, at all. In fact, the list appears to be built to slow on purpose. It seems like he wants to slow things to a crawl and then Lili or Confidant or Top to the win. Very odd, imo, but apparently very effective.
Referring to the art on Stasis:
I'm thinking that was trying to beat the snot out of NO Rug but just playing way too many things for them to handle. He's the control deck by a mile here, and RUG just runs out of steam.
-Matt
NO Rug? Well I suppose Lili does beat Progenitals. But I'm pretty sure it's not played much at the moment.
And that tactic you describe can be used by most Rock decks to beat RUG. That's what I do.
Referring to the art on Stasis:
Flame on!!
Hymn sucks! Decks that run only targeted discard are not only more successful, but the decks piolet is more attractive to the opposite sex and automatically gets advanced to the dessert round of "chopped". Just saying.
With the Lilliana plan, which we have been discussing as viable for a while now, I feel targeted discard is going to help you protect your bombs and allow them to control the gamestate muh better than hymn. On top of that, you need to be able to take the Jace, Mom, Submerge whatever from their hand and not just hope to hit it.
With Bob and Lilliana as engines, you should try and protect them and let them win the game for you. We are not playing Eva Green or Deadguy in which we need to jump on an opponent like a high school girl on prom night.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
@Lavafrogg
It all depends on your aproach. For a tempo-like version, like my dark horizons list, hymn is great. For the midrange versions that rely more on GSZ for example, you would select a pointed discard, and try to sabilize and then seize the game. Then we'd be back 4 pages ago, discussing if there is an "ultimate" list - and there is not, as we can see different builds doing well.
Omg!!! I made it to a legacy tourney!!! Traffic was terrible and I thought I missed it but it got bumped till 7, I'm super excited, wish me luck!
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
Good luck lavafrogg!, bring in the power of junk!
@everybody: seem's like this thread has been <card>silence</card> for a couple of days, how's everybody doin'?
I'm barely alive, these damn essays...so many pages of writing...
I played Thopters at the local Legacy tonight since I wanted a tiny change of pace for a bit. I like where my current Junk list is at, though.
-Matt
Junk takes third at Artifex in San Diego!
I went 3-1 with the latest and greatest list of junk which is only lacking karakas/maze of ith in the 75. I played against reanimator, maverick x2 and griselbrand storm. The game I lost wasplike have been victory if I had the mana to cast a single black spell the entire match.
Round One: reanimator.
Game one: He mulligans and I inquisition to see reanimate, exhume, exhume and land. I get a bob down which leads to GSZ for ooze with mana up which ends the game shortly after.
Game two: He extombs a griselbrand and I extirpate the demon over the top of his spell pierce, he tries to find other fatties but draws the Iona and has to bin the Elesh Norn, which eats a sword to the face.
1-0
Round two: Maverick.
Game one: He GSZ for arbor, I swords arbor, he plans a savannah, I waste savannah. I get two bobs down and run away with game one.
Game two: He goes mom, Fauna Shaman, and proceeds to fetch up bad things when he has creatures, through Lilliana and discard his hand is killed early in the game and he is playing off of the top. I get a 2-1 with an EE for one(mom, arbor) and force his shaman to block my goyfs. He gets an ooze but cant activate it enough to stop the green men from crashing in.
Round Three: Maverick.
Game One: I get ahead early with a tracker and a pridemage, as the game goes on he trades my pridemage for his knight and gets an active jitte(smart); I don't draw a single black source and die with discard, bobs and Lilliana's in my hand.
Game Two: He mulligans to five and then has every mana source wasted or swords while a knight goes to town. Blowout.
Game Three: I get goyfs he gets mom and knight, noone ever plays any instants or sorceries and my goyfs and ooze start to race his unblocked or knight. I get within one life point or green mana of winning the race but I die with Bobs and Lilliana's in my hand without any black mana sources in play. How unlucky.
My opponent only knew I was playing junk from a basic swamp I had to play in game two to resolve a knight. I played zero black spells or lands other than the basic swamp in game two. Such close games.
Round Four: Griselbrand Combo.
Game one: He is playing reanimate griselbrand and do terrible things to me.dec and in game one I turn one inquisition, turn two goyf, turn three GSZ for arboannoys thoughtsieze and turn four GSZ for ooze with mana up. GG.
Game two: I keep land inquisition and teeg plus other stuff. I went turn one inquisition, turn two wasteland, turn three teeg and other beaters after. The turn before lethal he kills my with griselbrand plus children of korolis.
Game three: I keep wasteland x2 tarmogoyf knight and land after mulliganing once and wasteland him twice to start the game. I get gifts from the top of my library as I get an inquisition the turn before he was going to kill me, taking infernal tutor, and a GSZ for ooze right after. I play a GSZ for teeg the turn before lethal and he gets a griselbrand on the board from five life, swings and draws seven, and can't win over both hate cards.
I went 3-1 and felt like I had the best list in the room, if I would have draw black mana I would have played RUG in the top two and had a chance at the champ. With my credit I got Thaliax3 and a Hex parasite.
I feel like I need to get the two utility lands switched out for the correct ones, it really doesn't matter but I fel like right now that they would help in more relevant matchups.
Junk is really good right now and I never felt like I didn't have a chance to beat anyone. 4x GSZ is the correct call in my opinion as that card is always money. Tarmogoyf was a strand won games quickly and dark confidant is a boss. End of story.
Thanks for cheering me on!!
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
@sdematt: i hope you dont catch fever about that damn essays
another junk made 3-1 in mtgo legacy:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital.../tourn/4109753
-lingering souls version w/ hymn on it, i'm not always a fan of leylines as sideboard, anyways good job boin!
@lavafrogg: congrats with your finish!
i'm curious what list did you used?
Tarmogoyf was a strand won games quickly and dark confidant is a boss.
+1
"Junk is really good right now and I never felt like I didn't have a chance to beat anyone."-- +1 also
Well played.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
Congrats, Lavafrogg!!!!!!!
EE for 1 got rid of mom and arbor? Isn't arbor CMC 0???
Also, post your list!!!
One more thing: 1 plague + 1 infest was not enough to hold goblins. I performed poorly last wednesday. Reverting back to 2 plagues, and deed is still good against gw.
I blame you guys for the silence! I've been lurking on the forum all day while at work. But nobody's been talking! I have nothing to share, as my local Legacy has died :(
I have yet to understand how Hymn is sub-optimal in any list.
A more aggro, GSZ based list could use the card advantage. A slower, less threat dense deck wants to shred their hand to prevent them from applying continuous pressure and from having removal for the few threats.
Sug has a good point about EE. Also, you think that was fun, wait til you hit Arbor, Hierarch, AND Mother with Zealous Persecution. THAT was a fun day!
@ lavafrogg: good job against some tough matchups for us!
@ryn: I see you itching to upvote things. I feel that feel bro
Referring to the art on Stasis:
I try to read here all the time, but I have nothing new to share.
I'm still doing VERY well with my regular list. I was playing against Sneak and Show, screwed up 3 separate times with Knight activations (I could have Wastelanded him EOT, but played it safe and didn't), and instead, he managed to get 2 red up for a single turn.
He Sneaks Emrakul, but I fetch Karakas. I bounce in the beginning of combat, but he slams it back down. I take 15 going to 1 and losing all my permanents except Knight and Karakas. I think proceed to beat him down with the Knight and win
-Matt
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