All B/R update speculation.

[Koby]

Vintage might have Vampiric, Demonic, and Imperial Seal (lol?), but it also only has 1 Brainstorm and 1 Ponder. These are clearly just as strong in Legacy (and evidently Modern) that all the argument that tutors are better is a wash. Being able to consistently and repeatedly filter the top of your deck with psuedo-Ancestrals is good enough when your deck is already built with redundancy.

See also, Sneak Show's cantrip engine.
See also, ANT's cantrip engine.
See also, Spiral Tide's cantrip engine.
etc

Replace the black tutors with blue cantrips, eliminate a color of exposure, and now you still have a tier 1 strategy that is faster than any possible Show & Tell strategy currently in Legacy. It completely invalidates all aggro options as early as turn 1. This is unacceptable.

[Justin]

I'm still thinking that Mind Twist is a safe unban. Maybe someone could show me a theoretical decklist in which it is broken. I think it works best in decks with Sol Lands. And sure it is strong if you resolve a Mind Twist that you pumped four or five mana into, but then again you can say the thing about the other commonly played four and five drops in this format.

Mind Twist is often not as good as it seems, even with Dark Ritual. If you are on the play and go, Swamp, Dark Rit, Dark Rit, Mind Twist for 4, you've only got three cards left in your hand to do anything with (and that's if you didn't mulligan). It's only a plus-one card advantage (a four for three), which is hardly broken. If you don't draw mana and threats soon, your opponent will have time to catch up. Your opponent loses four cards, but still has three in hand and will draw a fourth during his turn. It also hurts if you run it into Force of Will.

I can understand people not liking the card because of the element of "randomness." If it randomlly hits the key cards, you win off it, but you can get unlucky with it too. But none of that means that the card is broken.

[Michael Keller]

I'm still thinking that Mind Twist is a safe unban. Maybe someone could show me a theoretical decklist in which it is broken. I think it works best in decks with Sol Lands. And sure it is strong if you resolve a Mind Twist that you pumped four or five mana into, but then again you can say the thing about the other commonly played four and five drops in this format.

Mind Twist is often not as good as it seems, even with Dark Ritual. If you are on the play and go, Swamp, Dark Rit, Dark Rit, Mind Twist for 4, you've only got three cards left in your hand to do anything with (and that's if you didn't mulligan). It's only a plus-one card advantage (a four for three), which is hardly broken. If you don't draw mana and threats soon, your opponent will have time to catch up. Your opponent loses four cards, but still has three in hand and will draw a fourth during his turn. It also hurts if you run it into Force of Will.

I can understand people not liking the card because of the element of "randomness." If it randomlly hits the key cards, you win off it, but you can get unlucky with it too. But none of that means that the card is broken.

Something like this sequence I can see it working best - or at least most reasonably:

On the play:

T1: Ancient Tomb, Grim Monolith, Mox (Diamond or Opal).
T2: Land (Potentially an Artifact Land), Voltaic Key, Tap Monolith/Activate Key - Mind Twist @ X=7 (or 5 if you suspect Spell Pierce. If they're tapped out, 6 is acceptable as a holdout for Daze).

That's a thrashing. You also have access to an abundance of mana resources while your opponent could be wiped out before getting their second turn. It's a reasonable set of circumstances (aside from the potential Voltaic Key influence on the outcome) and I think MUD would be the best deck to abuse it because of its inherent ability to overwhelm an opponent with resources to begin the game. Granted, you'll be depleted of your hand and at the mercy of the top of your deck, but I would still take a start like that any day of the week with a ridiculous amount of mana and my opponent stuck on a single land and single card in his or her hand before their turn two.

Point is, Mind Twist requires an investment. In a deck like MUD, I can see it as an acceptable two-of with maybe a third in the board. Even a 1/1 split would work fine.

[Lord Seth]

Dragon can come off the banned list as soon as it learns how to not draw the game.

A judge told me that as long as there is another possible target for Animate Dead, someone can't draw the game with Worldgorger Dragon because the player will be required to at some point choose a different target so it doesn't draw. Granted, it'll still draw if there's no other target, but if there's something else for Animate Dead to animate in either graveyard, then it's not a draw.

I would say that the chief difference is that Ad Nauseam can be countered.

On the other hand, it can't be Stifled.

But even ignoring that, Mind's Desire requires you to set up Storm for it to be worth anything, when it's supposed to be the thing that sets up the Storm for you. It's kind of like, instead of paying money to buy something, you instead pay money so that you can pay money to buy something. It also costs more mana than Ad Nauseam and is off color. So I don't really think it'd be that dangerous.

[Darkenslight]

But even ignoring that, Mind's Desire requires you to set up Storm for it to be worth anything, when it's supposed to be the thing that sets up the Storm for you. It's kind of like, instead of paying money to buy something, you instead pay money so that you can pay money to buy something. It also costs more mana than Ad Nauseam and is off color. So I don't really think it'd be that dangerous.

You've never played with Desire, then, I'm guessing. The fundamental difference between the two is that Desire allows you to cast those spells for zero mana. A Desire for 8 usually means that's game RIGHT THERE without an immediate answer. AdN simply puts the cards in your hand. I think that Desire might be unbannable in Legacy, given the number of Tempo decks around, but I wouldn't be 100% comfortable with it.

[dontbiteitholmes]

A judge told me that as long as there is another possible target for Animate Dead, someone can't draw the game with Worldgorger Dragon because the player will be required to at some point choose a different target so it doesn't draw. Granted, it'll still draw if there's no other target, but if there's something else for Animate Dead to animate in either graveyard, then it's not a draw.On the other hand, it can't be Stifled.

Yes I know how Dragon works, it can draw the game so my point stands. If there is a non-dragon creature in the yard it's going to be Ambassador Laquatus or something else that is going to end the game anyways.

That's the point though. If the opponent can't kill you with the combo they can half-ass a combo that draws the game to force a restart, sometimes multiple times in a match.

Something like this sequence I can see it working best - or at least most reasonably:

On the play:

T1: Ancient Tomb, Grim Monolith, Mox (Diamond or Opal).
T2: Land (Potentially an Artifact Land), Voltaic Key, Tap Monolith/Activate Key - Mind Twist @ X=7 (or 5 if you suspect Spell Pierce. If they're tapped out, 6 is acceptable as a holdout for Daze).

That's a thrashing. You also have access to an abundance of mana resources while your opponent could be wiped out before getting their second turn. It's a reasonable set of circumstances (aside from the potential Voltaic Key influence on the outcome) and I think MUD would be the best deck to abuse it because of its inherent ability to overwhelm an opponent with resources to begin the game. Granted, you'll be depleted of your hand and at the mercy of the top of your deck, but I would still take a start like that any day of the week with a ridiculous amount of mana and my opponent stuck on a single land and single card in his or her hand before their turn two.

Point is, Mind Twist requires an investment. In a deck like MUD, I can see it as an acceptable two-of with maybe a third in the board. Even a 1/1 split would work fine.

What the hell? For 8 mana you could win the game. The strength of Mind Twist isn't in the first 2 turns, it's when you hit the control player for x=4 in a control mirror. That matchup barely exists anymore though, so it's probably safe to unban, but you never know.

[Michael Keller]

What the hell? For 8 mana you could win the game. The strength of Mind Twist isn't in the first 2 turns, it's when you hit the control player for x=4 in a control mirror. That matchup barely exists anymore though, so it's probably safe to unban, but you never know.

I was just simply answering a question as to what the best line of play could potentially be with a deck sporting Mind Twist from an opinionated standpoint. I also stated a use of a maximum two main-deck; eight mana in Legacy isn't necessarily always going to win you the game outright, but it can from a virtual standpoint, which is where I think this card shines.

I do, however, believe it's a fallacy to assume that Mind Twist's greatest strength lies within specific match-ups, especially Control mirrors. A Mind Twist for four on turn two is the same as a Mind Twist for four on turn six no matter what deck you're playing against, as long as you are able to maximize the amount of cards you're hitting - as in here the said four cards. It creates card advantage with multiple accelerators, which is what you want. I believe its greatest strength lies within timing and effort and the randomizing application the card provides. If you're able to legitimately cripple an opponent that early, there is absolutely no reason not to. I would much rather enjoy ramping up and blowing out an opponent's hand - including lands - than sit back with an opponent already with some semblance of an established board-state and try for what would then be a simply worse Hymn to Tourach, which is another card best used in the early game.

And in a deck that has access to an overabundance of resources, there's no reason to assume at the very least a card like Mind Twist can't be effectively utilized. I'm not saying it is optimal in a MUD variant, but I believe that it is a card predicated on soaking up mana and just crippling an opponent before he or she has a chance to do anything relevant. That is the only reason I would ever even consider playing the card: for the novelty blowout.

[Gheizen64]

I wish people would build decks to highlight how stupidly absurd the banned cards are, then claim they should be banned or unbanned.

Theorycraft is bubkis.

Problem is this is possible with actually good cards, but it's impossible to break a mediocre card. I tried to explain this to a guy that believed Black Vise was the stone cold nuts and that it would be worse for the format than Oath. What it happened? Each list i provided was "trash" and "stop joking around you're purposely throwing around bad lists".
He obviously never ever dared of throwing a list himself and disappeared after my 5th-6th list with Black Vise and people realizing the card was shit.

There are lists however with Channel, Fastbond and Mana Vault that are broken as shit in the B&R decklist challenge.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I wish people would build decks to highlight how stupidly absurd the banned cards are, then claim they should be banned or unbanned.

Theorycraft is bubkis.

Since it seems one of the ones that's up for dispute:

4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flash of Insight

4 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Frantic Search

1 Brain Freeze

4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
3 Twincast

8 Islands
9 Fetchlands

[Silent Requiem]

Since it seems one of the ones that's up for dispute:

4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flash of Insight

4 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Frantic Search

1 Brain Freeze

4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
3 Twincast

8 Islands
9 Fetchlands

You can't imagine how much I that list to be legal.

Which probably means that I can't really be trusted to be impartial when I say:

That looks totally fair!



Edit: I'd probably run Snapcaster over Twincast, though. True, it has poor synergy with FoI, but I think it would probably be worth it, at least in game 1, where we are unlikely to see any graveyard hate.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You can't imagine how much I that list to be legal.

Which probably means that I can't really be trusted to be impartial when I say:

That looks totally fair!



Edit: I'd probably run Snapcaster over Twincast, though. True, it has poor synergy with FoI, but I think it would probably be worth it, at least in game 1, where we are unlikely to see any graveyard hate.

I would run Twincast over Snapcaster for the same reason I would run Solidarity over Spring Tide; I'd be more worried about the mirror than much else. And Twincast totes trumps Snapcaster in the mirror.

[Justin]

I was just simply answering a question as to what the best line of play could potentially be with a deck sporting Mind Twist from an opinionated standpoint. I also stated a use of a maximum two main-deck; eight mana in Legacy isn't necessarily always going to win you the game outright, but it can from a virtual standpoint, which is where I think this card shines.

I do, however, believe it's a fallacy to assume that Mind Twist's greatest strength lies within specific match-ups, especially Control mirrors. A Mind Twist for four on turn two is the same as a Mind Twist for four on turn six no matter what deck you're playing against, as long as you are able to maximize the amount of cards you're hitting - as in here the said four cards. It creates card advantage with multiple accelerators, which is what you want. I believe its greatest strength lies within timing and effort and the randomizing application the card provides. If you're able to legitimately cripple an opponent that early, there is absolutely no reason not to. I would much rather enjoy ramping up and blowing out an opponent's hand - including lands - than sit back with an opponent already with some semblance of an established board-state and try for what would then be a simply worse Hymn to Tourach, which is another card best used in the early game.

And in a deck that has access to an overabundance of resources, there's no reason to assume at the very least a card like Mind Twist can't be effectively utilized. I'm not saying it is optimal in a MUD variant, but I believe that it is a card predicated on soaking up mana and just crippling an opponent before he or she has a chance to do anything relevant. That is the only reason I would ever even consider playing the card: for the novelty blowout.

That's a pretty nice example of how MUD can use Mind Twist. Of course, they could also cast a turn two Karn Liberated, which can be just about as devastating if your opponent lets it resolve that early in the game. And the MUD player's starting hand isn't going to be that powerful most of the time.

[Tacosnape]

I'mma just say this about Mind Twist. I played with and against this card for years, way back before Legacy was a thing. And everybody I see discuss it, either way, seems to be talking about the card like it's designed to be used on turn 2 or 3, for as high as possible as fast as possible. This isn't where Mind Twist usually breaks games.

Mind Twist is at it's absolute best around turn 4-5. A lot of games of magic, even in Legacy, involve battles for board stability and incremental advantages for the first few turns. In a near stalemate or even from a slight disadvantage, the Mind Twist for 3+ is game over.

The neat thing about it, though, unlike Jace, is that it isn't confined to being a 4-drop. It can be a 6-drop later than turn 4, it can be a slightly slower Hymn. It's maximum-power disruption that you can adjust the timing and potency of to suit your curve.

I'd personally love to see what a Deadguy Ale shell or Zombardment list could do with this. Something where the entire deck has an extremely low curve and is meant to cap the quick board development with a dreamcrushing Mind Twist. Not to mention, Dark Confidant loves the card.

[joemauer]

Something like this sequence I can see it working best - or at least most reasonably:

On the play:

T1: Ancient Tomb, Grim Monolith, Mox (Diamond or Opal).
T2: Land (Potentially an Artifact Land), Voltaic Key, Tap Monolith/Activate Key - Mind Twist @ X=7 (or 5 if you suspect Spell Pierce. If they're tapped out, 6 is acceptable as a holdout for Daze).

That's a thrashing. You also have access to an abundance of mana resources while your opponent could be wiped out before getting their second turn. It's a reasonable set of circumstances (aside from the potential Voltaic Key influence on the outcome) and I think MUD would be the best deck to abuse it because of its inherent ability to overwhelm an opponent with resources to begin the game. Granted, you'll be depleted of your hand and at the mercy of the top of your deck, but I would still take a start like that any day of the week with a ridiculous amount of mana and my opponent stuck on a single land and single card in his or her hand before their turn two.

Point is, Mind Twist requires an investment. In a deck like MUD, I can see it as an acceptable two-of with maybe a third in the board. Even a 1/1 split would work fine.

Turn one Delver.
Neither of us have cards in hand and all you are going to topdeck is mana accelerants and Mind Twists.
Good Game.

[Tacosnape]

I don't know about you, but in the Knight/Cradle shell that is Maverick, I can't help but think it'd go in here, Thalia or not. Some scenarios quite capable of happening:

Turn one Land, Mother.
Turn two Land, Thalia.
Turn three Land, Knight.
Turn four fetch a Bayou, Knight for Cradle, Mind Twist for 5 (Including the +1 for Thalia.)

Me personally? I think this wins a lot of games.

[Lord Seth]

Well, I think one thing to remember is that whether Mind Twist should come off the ban list isn't a matter of whether it might be a good card or see play. It's whether it's actually broken to the point that it should stay on it. For example, cards like Time Spiral, Entomb, and Metalworker were unbanned and see play in competitive decks, but I don't see people complaining that they need to be rebanned.

So I guess the mere fact that Mind Twist might actually be a good card doesn't mean it's actually broken in the format anymore.

[Awaclus]

Well, I think one thing to remember is that whether Mind Twist should come off the ban list isn't a matter of whether it might be a good card or see play. It's whether it's actually broken to the point that it should stay on it. For example, cards like Time Spiral, Entomb, and Metalworker were unbanned and see play in competitive decks, but I don't see people complaining that they need to be rebanned.

The following is a conclusion drawn from recent discussion in The Source's Format & Article Discussion forum: Nobody's complaining about Time Spiral and Entomb because they are being ran in decks that also use Brainstorm, and people would rather see Brainstorm banned first. Nobody's complaining about Metalworker because it isn't blue, so it isn't a big deal even if it does well.

[Gheizen64]

The following is a conclusion drawn from recent discussion in The Source's Format & Article Discussion forum: Nobody's complaining about Time Spiral and Entomb because they are being ran in decks that also use Brainstorm, and people would rather see Brainstorm banned first. Nobody's complaining about Metalworker because it isn't blue, so it isn't a big deal even if it does well.

? What the hell are you saying? No one is complaining about Worker because it's inconsistent as shit and was a rare presence in the recent years. Worker is also rarely hated for, and some of the strongest hate cards in the game are for artifact (Hurkyll's Recall, Shattering spree etc...).

Comparing that to BS presence at the top of the meta over the years?

[Vacrix]

I would run Twincast over Snapcaster for the same reason I would run Solidarity over Spring Tide; I'd be more worried about the mirror than much else. And Twincast totes trumps Snapcaster in the mirror.

Or you could forgo Reset entirely and then be able to play the Snapcaster/Snap engine with Frantic Searches and still play a few copies of Twincast for the mirror. Which would mean the deck could win at Instant speed or on your own turn.



Edit:
In regards to Mind Twist, I wonder if people will use it for more than Tacosnape's boss Maverick line of play, or Hollywood's MUD line of play. Perhaps.. with Dream Salvage and cards that delay the game to keep the opponent's hand full.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

That'd open you up to removal though. Plus you'd need a Snapcaster for Snap to actually turn on, putting you at a disadvantage.

I haven't heard a good argument against unbanning Goblin Recruiter.