Played this list in a small local last night:
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
3 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
1 Ghastly Demise
19
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
4 Wasteland
SB:
3 Pyroblast
3 Sulfur Elemental
3 Submerge
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Spell Pierce
1 Thoughtseize
- The deck seems to really hinge on whether or not you draw Delver. If you draw Delver you get to be a tempo deck and smash face. If you don't draw a Delver you are stuck being a control deck in a tempo shell. Hitting the mana to cast Clique/Tombstalker can be challenging. The deck really needs another high-quality beater, but I don't think anything is available in these colors.
- 1 Badlands is pretty terrible. I would have always preferred another fetchland.
- Overall, the deck felt like a much less consistent version of RUG. Tombstalker and Clique are not adequate replacements for Goyf/Goose. Being able to cast a cheap threat and protect it is one of the strongest parts of RUG. I felt that I was never able to do that.
Edit: To clarify the above, the deck is really great at generating tempo, but not necessarily capitalizing on it. I can Stifle, Daze, and Waste my opponent into oblivion, but in doing so I would rarely have the mana/resources necessary to cast Clique/Tombstalker. It is only when I had Delver did the plan work particularly well. I could see taking the deck in a more aggressive direction, but then you become a bad version of UR delver. If you stick with the Tempo plan you are just a worse RUG/BUG because you lack access to Goyf.
The only option I can think of right now is Jace's Phantasm. With this you'd probably want to play some number of Thought Scour, and possibly also consider running an Umezawa's Jitte or two in the maindeck.
A possible list:
19 Lands (no Badlands, agreed here, possibly a basic Island)
4 Delver
4 Phantasm
3 Tombstalker (possibly better as just 2, add in another Fire//Ice maybe)
1 Jitte
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire//Ice
3 Thought Scour
Another option I would consider is fitting in the Temporal Mastery setup. Here's a potential list:
19 Lands
4 Delver
4 Phantasm
2 Tombstalker
1 Jitte
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Portent
4 Temporal Mastery
4 FoW
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
2 Thought Scour
What I am noticing though is that Red is being under-utilized aside from Bolts and the SB options. It may be possible to just play a straight U/B tempo deck with the options we have available, giving us a bit more resiliency to Wasteland.
None of these things solve the inherent problem of creature quality. Playing mill to make Jace's Phantasm better is pretty terrible. What the deck really needs is a quality beater in Red or Black. That would totally push it over the top. The deck is right on the edge now, it just needs another good creature to make it a house.Originally Posted by wcm8
Success once again at a small local 3 round tournament.
Round 1 vs. RUG Delver 2-1
Round 2 vs. Maverick 2-1
Round 3 vs. RUG Delver 2-1
Goblin Guide is the star of the show game one until Tombstalker shows up. Game 2-3 the board options seal the deal for victory.
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
2 Badlands
2 Volcanic Island
4 Goblin Guide
4 Tombstalker
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Ponder
Sideboard
3 Perish
3 Pyroclasm
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Thoughtsieze
3 Massacre
Goblin Guide with Stifle and Wasteland: new hot tech in town for tempo decks. You destroy 'em mana, you give 'em mana back.
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Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
It's because he usually stifles the Guide trigger...
Are you into Jazz? Have a look at the Lp's I have for sale on Discogs!
Your so smart and wise. People must call you Mister Wisdom.
Yes, it's a terrible nonbo. Thanks for pointing out the obvious. As someone posted earlier said "The deck seems to really hinge on whether you draw delver..." I tried to take Goblin Guide out and ran the V-click lists that have been posted. No success.... unless I drew delver.
Guide doesn't give mana back! He gives you the card after the land you would draw anyway... BIG difference!
Totally right. RUG runs 4x Goyfs, and can play them all with 2 mana. You can run 3-4 Stalkers but you'll have to be lucky (or play a really long game... so much for tempo) to drop two of them. RUG's strategy just seems much more consistent and better honed for the quick victories it's looking to seal.
Also the best card in the deck - Snuff Out, the best tempo card in the format - seems borderline awful in a meta where 1/3-1/2 competitive decks run lots of reach. Mrg.
Final Ritual: "I was your round 14 opponent with the 3 giant goyfs. I didn't know what the fuck you were piloting."
Drunken Master strategy. If I don't know what I'm doing, how would you?
Meanwhile slight update to my list:
+2 Spellstutter Sprite
-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Daze
Sprites partly solve the problem of low creature count as well as raise CA. In the late game they are much better than daze being able to counter relevant cantrips and removal. 2 Cliques are often too much as the deck usually operates on 2 lands. Overall they feel very good in this deck.
What do you think about adding 1 or 2 bitterblossom? Perhaps instead of 1 snapcaster and 1 discard/clique.
List just for reference:
4 Polluted delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
1 Fire/Ice
1 Dismember
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
Nothing is true, everything is permitted...
Is anyone still playing this?
I think it has a great match up against most the meta
With perish in SB and REB
I'm playing Grixis Tempo
I play a very conventional list, it's much like the other lists posted. I play Cliques, 'Stalkers and Delvers as my creature base. I play the with Stifles, Ponders and then all of the other super obvious cards.
Stalker is super good against Tempo and random decks but it's not as good against Stoneblade decks because StP can be good against this deck. I play x3 Spell Pierce but I still feel sort of threat light. If people are interested I can post my full list and SB...
How do the others playing Grixis feel about the Stoneblade/Esperblade MU? I feel like they play so many basics that the Stifle/Waste plan isn't as effective as it could be, plus Miracles is pretty favoured in my experience... Any advice or perspective on these MUs?
Low-activity thread, but I'll post anyway...
I've felt that 9 creatures are on the low side as well. Acting as another beater, has Oona's Prowler been considered?
So, I'm still not a terribly experienced player and as such wasn't aware of this deck. And so, when I was tinkering with a deck myself I thought yay, I've come up with something great! Turns out it's very, very similar to Team Grixis... go figure :)
Anyway, here is an excerpt from my post on the deck:
I'm really enjoying the deck so far, and the Nivmagus Elemental is awesome. My initial plan was to play 4 which quickly become clear was over zealous. 2 seems to be right. It has great synergy with Gigadrowse and Flusterstorm and fits in nicely with Bob. Drop one of them mid- to late game and it can often kill once it untaps with one of either Gigadrowse and/or Flusterstorm.So, I've been testing a deck for a while now, proxied, and have decided to start putting it together for real. Will have to wait for RtR as I need two copies of a card from there, but will get to that.
Here's the list I'm currently testing:
Creatures:
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Dark Confidant
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Grim Lavamancer
2x Nivmagus Elemental
Spells:
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Lightning Bolt
2x Stifle
2x Flusterstorm
2x Gigadrowse
2x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
Lands:
4x Wasteland
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
3x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island
1x Island
Sideboard:
1x Stifle
2x Perish
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Misdirection
3x Pyroblast
1x Wipe Away
1x Gilded Drake
The Nivmagus Elemental adds some volatility to the deck. It can attack as a 1/2 and once they have decided to not block it can grow tremendously with just one or two spells with either storm or replicate.
I have been testing the deck on a couple of occasions with my playgroup against a variety of different decks and I like what I'm seeing. It's quite resilient and can squeeze out wins when looking completely out.
Would love to hear some other people's thoughts on :)
Last edited by nevilshute; 09-28-2012 at 08:38 AM.
SO with RUg delver being so sucessfull. What do you think this deck or color combo lacks that RUG really shines with? I think tombstalker is better then goyf and the discard really helps against any deck.
The biggest difference in my opinion is Nimble Mongoose. With the Tundra decks, Miracle Control and Stoneblade infesting the meta, one edge Canadian Thresh has against them is the shroud of the Mongoose. The control decks have very limited ways to deal with the little guy.
It also doesn't help that Grixis has fewer creatures, as mentioned in the above posts, which is pretty tough against the UW decks that have so much removal.
It is of course nimble mongoose with shroud. But Tombstalker is also a liability. Goyf just costing 1G is so much cheaper than double color (not blue) + you likely cannot play tombstalker in turn 2 to 4. So Tombstalker is better when it hits the board, but it beeing a lot more expensive than Goyf makes Goyf the better creature overall.
Currently playing: Elves
I don't like comparing goyf with Tombstalker for a variety of reasons. One being he can't hit the table as early as Goyf. Two being that if he gets bounced by, say, Jace he is unlikely to get played again.
On the question of where we struggle as compared to RUG delver, then like others have mentioned, the lack of a 3/3 shrouder for 1 mana hurts. I like to think that we can make up for that with what black offers both our MD and our SB. I LOVE having access to Perish and Dread of Night in my SB. Also Dark Confidants and Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek/Duress in MD is punishing to a lot of decks.
I also play 2 copies of the Nivmagus Elemental accompanied by 2x Flusterstorm and 2x Gigadrowse which actually offer the deck some mid- to late game muscle.
I think goyf is very easy to stall out where as stalker flys over and beats face.
I've been testing forked bolt vs fire/ice. Who here is running bolt and who picked fire/ice. I like the fact fire is a instant and has a second option.
Played a few games and as of right now fire and ice is the flex spot card.
What would you bring as a sideboard to a open meta if you were going to a tourny tomorrow?
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