If you want to go for the intuition package with rites, add 1 Gigapede. Belongs to veteran explorer type decks imo though.Originally Posted by rxavage
I mean its really not that cool and it doesn't fit with my gameplan. I'm just used to slapping down cheat Griselbrands.
On the topic of Esper Blade, I'm currently fiddling around with the following list. It's far from done and I don't even know if I like it yet, but let's discuss anyway.
22 lands
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Squadron Hawk
1 Umezawa's Jitte / Sword of War and Peace / Body and Mind / Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Vindicate
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
There are several notable differences with other esperblade decks:
Squadron Hawk instead of Lingering Souls, because:
Squadron Hawk comes down earlier
Squadron Hawk fuels Brainstorm
Squadron Hawk fuels turn 2 flashback Cabal Therapy
Squadron Hawk fuels Jace
Squadron Hawk connects with equipment
Squadron Hawk is immune to Terminus and Swords to Plowshares
Squadron Hawk doesn't care about Vendillion Clique or Delver
Jotun Grunt because:
Jotun Grunt costs 1W, just like Batterskull
Jotun Grunt is a good beatstick
Jotun Grunt shrinks Mongoose, Knight of the Reliquary and Tarmogoyf
Jotun Grunt puts back dead Hawks, which are searched for very soon
Jotun Grunt is maindeck graveyard hate
Jotun Grunt messes with Snapcaster Mages
Jotun Grunt survives a lightning bolt
Cabal Therapy over Thoughtseize because:
Snapcaster into Thoughtseize is a waste of Snapcaster's ability
Snapcaster into something else, flashbacking Cabal Therapy gives you much more value
Cabal Therapy is great with Squadron Hawk, because it also leaves you with a hand that's set up to abuse Brainstorm or Jace, more therapies, an evasive body for equipment, or chumpfood
Cabal Therapy hits everything and doesnt cost life
Cabal Therapy sacrificing a Jotun Grunt which is on the way out is a good use of your resources
Early Flashback Therapy is important against combo decks that put you on a fast clock
Double use without Snapcaster Mage means that you have a higher density of discard effects in your deck.
I'd like to play Engineered Explosives in the deck, but I don't really have the space right now. If I can find space for 2 E.E.'s I think I should have a very reasonable game 1 chance against RUG, Maverick and UW Miracles. Also testing out Sword of War and Peace as it gives protection against Entreat the Angels tokens, plowshares, bolts and knights, but also gives me the ability to race really fast and gain life at the same time. Squadron Hawks help fill up my hand to increase the amount of Life I gain with it.
What do you guys think?
I don't think Lingering Souls is particularly good right now and it's generally more powerful than Hawks. This deck already has a lot of CA. You don't want to waste turns durdling with Hawks, or Land Tax, or any other mediocre CA engine. Jace is all the late game engine you need. Hawks have nice synergy with BS, Jace, Grunts, or equipment, but they don't do anything on their own.
If you need more engine, run more Jace. Jace is CA, disruption, and wincon in one package... but I think as recent lists are showing, the problem isn't how to win as much as it is reaching the late game to win. Cutting Jaces and Cliques in favor of more early disruption helps us reach the late game where we will generally dominate.
Grunts are probably not as good as you want them to be, and will come back to bite you more times than you'd like with their bad Snapcaster synergy. If you want ways to abuse Cabal Therapy, Lingering Souls is much more efficient than Hawks (or Hawks + Grunts).
Looking at your list and what you're trying to do, my suggestion would be to cut Grunts, Hawks, and Spell Snare for 3 Lingering Soul, the 4th FoW, the 4th Snapcaster, and 2 EE.
I don't think this deck wants to cast 4 1/1's in a row. Lingering souls is just that, but this is not true for hawk. The way I pilot it is that I will only cast hawk if I have:
1) therapy in graveyard
2) brainstorm in hand
3) equipment on the table
4) jace on the table
5) vendillion clique / delver / entreat / tombstalker staring down at me
6) fill up hand after terminus
Otherwise there really is no strategic reason to cast the spell. Preferably you want to play it when at least 2 situations occur at the same time. The idea of plyaing Mesa Pegasus is not that appealing but when you understand how versatile it is and how it assists you in the plan you try to accomplish its more than a Mesa Pegasus.
Putting this card in the same league as lingering souls is somewhat faulty, because hawks have very unique utility, much different then lingering souls.
You are def. right about the spell snare and I still have to play test grunt before I can say anything about that card. On paper it seems strong against rug though, but I can see what you mean with grunt eating Snapcaster targets or dying a turn too quick.
Can you explain what you mean by this? You don' t have to flashback LS as soon as you can (unless you're playing against Surgical/Extirpate, in which case you may not want to cast LS at all until you can cast and flashback before passing priority).
Except for the above situation, you typically cast LS when you:
(a) Want 2 power in the air to fend off an Insectile Aberration
(b) Have a Jitte on its way.
(c) Need to defend/attack a Jace.
(d) Need to break a groundstall.
I'm pretty conservative about flashing them back (too conservative: sometimes I forget I even have it in my yard). If you flash back for no good reason, you're more susceptible to EE/Deed/Pulse/Echoing Truth.
If you can get 4 flying 1/1s out of 1 card and 5 mana, that doesn't seem worse than being able to get 4 flying 1/1s out of 1+ cards and 6 mana. LS is also pseudo-uncounterable as well semi-immune to discard effects (that is, it can be countered or discarded, but still useful), and since it's literally 1 card, the theoretical maximum number of flying 1/1s you can get is much higher. Obviously, the drawback is that, if you're lucky, Hawks can be recycled continuously, whereas if you're flashing back LS, that's not the case (although you can always recycle them with Jotun Grunt too).
I will admit that Squadron Hawk's synergy with Jotun Grunt is interesting, but I wonder how often that really helps you out much.
Has anyone tried Bitterblossom over Lingering Souls?
What I meant is that I see Lingering Souls as a card with very little non-aggro utility. The best non-aggro utility I can think of is that it can protect your Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Squadron Hawk has merits as a non-aggro card. Before I explain this, I will describe my thought process.
Assumption #1
First off, the assumption is that multiple 1-CC discard spells are a good way to disrupt the best decks in the format. Combined with efficient counterspells, spot removal and a clock, you have a deck that should be able to win against all types of decks. Let's zoom in on discard spells: 2 cards are very popular right now. Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize. There is also Hymn to Tourach and Cabal Therapy, but they see less play and are usually not included in Esperblade. A common play in Esperblade is Snapcaster Mage flashbacking Inquisition of Kozilek or Thoughtseize. I think many of us will agree that this is a pretty strong play, excluding weird scenarios against Reanimator or Dredge.
Assumption #2
Another assumption is that Snapcaster Mage is a really good card. It helps you get a lot of value out of your cards and rewards you for playing many different types of cheap instants and sorceries, instead of running 4 of every type. The more diverse your deck, the better Snapcaster Mage becomes, because you will have a bigger selection available. That said, playing with a diverse deck inherently makes it less consistent, so it is better to play with only the best instants and sorceries instead.
Assumption #3
This brings us to another assumption: The best cards in legacy are: Swords to Plowshares and Brainstorm. Swords to Plowshares is the cheapest way to get rid of creatures, and Legacy is a creature format (despite the recent GP win from Storm combo). If you want to kill creatures, Swords to Plowshares is the best option available in the card pool. Brainstorm is the reason why blue decks tend to win. They have more consistent draws due to selection, and, like Snapcaster Mage, Brainstorm too rewards you for playing situational cards. This is because you can shuffle them away in exchange for more relevant cards, and thus give you answers against a more diverse range of archetypes.
So I've now concluded that we want to play with Snapcaster Mage, Brainstorm and Swords to Plowshares. But, I've also concluded that the common play Snapcaster Mage flashing back a discard spell is very good. What we actually want to do is use our Snapcaster Mage to play the 2 best cards in legacy, namely Brainstorm or Swords to Plowshares, but if we're spending it on Thoughtseize or IoK, we can't do that anymore.
So, the question right now is, is there a way to get the extra discard without having to sacrifice the ability of Snapcaster Mage to do so? Yes, Cabal Therapy does this. With minimal extra effort, we can use Cabal Therapy as discard. We do this by sacrificing one of our creatures that has already provided us with its value because of the 'enters the battlefield' effect. This could be Vendillion Clique, Snapcaster Mage or Squadron Hawk. We don't want to do this to something like Lingering Souls, because without an 'enters the battlefield' effect, you will not have gained anything outside of the Cabal Therapy effect.
So now we've determined that Brainstorm, Swords to Plowshares, Snapcaster Mage and Cabal Therapy are good. We can't forget that flashing back Cabal Therapy is conditional and we aren't running that many creatures. There is a way to improve the consistency of Cabal Therapy and to greatly increase the strength of our best card in the game: Brainstorm. This is Squadron Hawk.
Conclusion
In short: I believe that Cabal Therapy is a much more elegant way to do the same thing as Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek. It frees up your Snapcaster Mages for Swords to Plowshares and Brainstorm, but it requires a little more creature dense deck.
Flashbacking a Cabal Therapy with a Squadron Hawk is very similar to casting Inquisition of Kozilek or Thoughtseize from a Snapcaster Mage, but Squadron Hawk sets you up for a broken Brainstorm, which helps you get control over the game better than Snapcaster Mage if all you're using it to flashback discard. What is important though, is that if you can save your Snapcaster Mage because you are using Squadron Hawk as the discarder, you can use the Snapcaster Mage to cast Brainstorm, which will immediately be more impactful than otherwise because you are putting back 2 Squadron Hawks. Snapcaster Mage and Squadron Hawk have synergy in this setup.
In addition to these non-aggro utilities, Squadron Hawk provides many of the same aggro-utilities as Lingering Souls, such as evasion+equip, small army, cannonfodder. Lingering Souls might be slightly better in that department, but I'm looking to improve the non-aggro utility of the deck.
Jotun Grunt
Jotun Grunt is a separate story. I know I am not the first to fall against a gigantic Knight of the Reliquary, an untargetable Nimble Mongoose or Tarmogoyf, or getting that Counterspell or Spell Pierce flashbacked with Snapcaster Mage when you tried to resolve your Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Jotun Grunt provides a fast beater, one that improves 2 dominant decks in the format right now: RUG and Maverick. Especially RUG since Jotun Grunt is good against the majority of the decks threats and it survives atleast 1 lightning bolt/forked bolt/chain lightning, etc. RUG was the most played deck in Ghent, which is only 2 or 3 hours from Amsterdam, where I live. Jotun Grunt further conveniently puts back Squadron Hawks and can be sacrificed to Cabal Therapy without much regret, because he is a temporary threat anyway. Jotun Grunt provides me with Batterskull 5 and 6, since I'm also running 4 Stoneforge Mystics. That is a pretty amazing density of 4/4 bodies for a deck like this. 2 Jotun Grunts might be too much, but I would at least play with 1. This is something I need to test further.
I have found that the only reason I was losing games was to either weak opening hands or hitting several blanks in a row. In order to fix this, I have added 2x Ponder, and I cut my second EE for a Trinket Mage (who can find my 1x Sensei's Divining Top). The Trinket Mage has also allowed me to free up a sideboard slot vs graveyard decks.
I've been liking this setup as well. Adding Top and Ponder make openers and topdecks a lot smoother.
I'm also trying to find the best place to add Vindicate. Probably by either dropping the 5th discard for one MD or dropping a Disenchant or two for two Vindicate in the SB. It feels like a good MD catch-all, but EE usually fills that role just fine. It might be fine in the SB as Enchantment/Artifact hate that doubles as Creature/Planeswalker removal.
I have been playing UWr Miracle Blade for a while now and i'm convinced it is absolutely insane. I don't feel like I have any bad match-ups at all. Maverick is usually a bye, and RUG can't beat the slow play with Terminus or Entreat. The deck is crazy good and I would never suggest any other build. I used it to top 8 2 SCG IQs in a row and have consistently came first or second at my LGS.
I just figured i'd put my two cents in for anyone who was interested. Feel free to argue or disregard me, and there will be no hard feelings as we are all here to learn.
Would you be so kind to include the list for this particular build? Thx!
gladly, my friend:Would you be so kind to include the list for this particular build? Thx!
4 Stoneforge
3 Snapcaster
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
3 FoW
1 Counterspell
4 StP
2 Sensei's Diving Top
3 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of FaF
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
2 Wasteland
SB:
1 Humilty
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Gilded Drake
1 Banishing Stroke
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 REB
2 Sulfur Elemnetal
1 FoW
2 Relic of Progenitus
May I give my particular opinion on this build? I've been playing UWr Terminator at the GP to a sad 6-3 score, so I have quite a little experience with it. But it's been quite a time since I last casted a Stoneforge Mystic.
1) 2 Sensei's Divining Top seems just plain wrong. I even play Academy Ruins to get one of my 4 Tops back. Yes, you are no Terminator-deck, but I'd still advance it to 3, or even 4. But as you deck does play equipment you could still play Trinket Mage which provides a body at least.
2) The one-off Spell Snares looks somewhat random, and the modern meta does not really warrant a Spell Snare to be honest. Your deck is not afraid of so many CC2 spells, better up the Counterspell/Spell Pierce count.
3) How the fuck can your manabase work? I mean, it looks great, cause it does everything, it provides 3 colors, creatures, utility-lands and even features some Wastelands. But how can this work? I didn't play a game with your manabase but it looks very shackey at best.
4) I've been kicking the Vendilion Cliques out of my list recently because I was not satisfied with their performance against various decks. Maybe your meta warrants playing these faeries, but I would give it another thought. You could easily stock up your other not-4-offs which should probably be 4-offs - for example Force of Will, maybe Snapcaster Mage too.
Greetings
You mean 3-3 actually right?
"I don't get why people think going 5-0 and 6-3 at a GP is going 11-3. Basically it's 8-3, 5-0 grinder, 3-3 actual GP. The 3 "wins" from byes are already counted in the grinder wins. "
Kidding aside, I do agree with most of what you said, except for Cliques not pulling their weight.
What a great answer:
"flame, flame, oh and I agree with you"
Thank you for your valuable input.
Greetings
EDIT: Just saw that you "quoted" that from a Philipp that's not me. It was Philipp2293 you quoted that from. I was surprised to read something like this from you, sorry for my reaction, I just wasn't used to such a form of communitcation from you, as I discussed with you earlier that year in the SneakAttack-Thread.
Well That explains it, I quoted that because it seemed out of character, sorry about that. Anyways, I'm still torn between running an espsermiracle/blade deck or sneakshow next week at this tourney for duals. Here's my prospective esper list:
CREATURES
3 SCM
INSTANTS 16
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
SORCERIES
4 Thoughtseize
3 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
ARTIFACTS 7
4 Top
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles
PLANESWALKER 3
3 Jace
LANDS 22
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
SIDEBOARD
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Disenchant
3 CB
1 Timley Reinforcements
1 Humility
1 Grafdigger’s cage
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Porphyry Nodes
Last edited by rxavage; 07-30-2012 at 08:58 AM.
How about something like:
4 Stoneforge
3 Snapcaster
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Trinket Mage
2 Spell Pierce
4 FoW
1 Counterspell
4 StP
2 Sensei's Diving Top
3 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Brainstorm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Dust Bowl
SB:
1 Humility
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Gilded Drake
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Disenchant
2 Flusterstorm
2 REB
1 Pyroblast
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Relic of Progenitus
The sideboard isn't set since you can always tweak it based on your metagame, but I like the maindeck.
rxavage, Why do you have SFM in your deck when you don't play any equipment to fetch?
It's supposed to be SCM, I'll fix that.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
