Forgive my ignorance and the comparatively shallow question, but why is the LED version now called Quadlazer? Just curious.
The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.
It isn't. I think what you're referring to is the overwhelming majority of European players playing the deck and posting about it, when there are still other variants of LED Dredge with varying quantities of cards used that don't necessarily all ring it at four a piece.Originally Posted by kicks_422
I've come to similar findings, I'm playing your list -2 Dark Blast, +1 Golgari Thug +1 Putrid Imp with 3 Ashen Ghoul and 1 Tarnished Citadel in the SB and I haven't had any qualms over it.
I guess it's just Quad-Lazer that switches out an Ichorid for a land, but I think it goes to show you why Quad-Lazer does so well, staying away from the cute bull shit and just concentrating on consistency is what is going to win you all of your games.
Normal LED Dredge doesn't necessarily get "cute" to win games; it's focus is primary shifted towards variety where Quadlazer pulls its strength in redundancy. It does lack in consistency with a far more linear game one without Dread Returns or any other utility cards like Darkblast, in addition to having only eight gold lands pre-board. The sideboarding strategies are effectively the same between the two decks, except non-Quad Dredge does in fact have a slight bit of variety over its counterpart to circumvent hate by diversifying its strategy aside from just land(s)/Ashen Ghoul(s). Quad lists do this to a certain extent, but not as much as the non-Q lists do.
Variety isn't necessarily a dereliction in strategic optimization, it's just a different approach to winning games. It's not like the deck is ridiculously stretched beyond its means; it can still win games with relative ease - and just as fast.
What I mean is one of the most important goals for Dredge was to find the minimum number of kill conditions in order to be certain we weren't over investing in cards that didn't help us win games i.e. achieve insurmountable board position and card advantage.
3 Ichorid seems to achieve that, with the 4th Ichorid giving way to a card that adds more consistency to mulligans i.e. land.
The only other configurations I find of any interest are the 2 Ichorid, and 4 Dread Return/Targets builds and trying to figure out what the trade off between the additional kill conditions and the utility cards like Cabal Therapy and Putrid Imp are, to prove whether or not the least or the most kill conditions are definitevly the best idea.
If by variety you mean not playing any Dread Return(s) or Dark Blasts, that's just a function of me finding the minimum number of kill conditions (maybe 2 Ichorid, 1 Dread Return is correct for all I know) and U/w players finding out Peace Keeper is really bad vs. us because we "can" be playing Dark Blast MD.
Thank you for actually reading the cuts/additions, and I agree that MD DR without a target is fine.
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
The german version is called quadlazer because it plays everything as a 4-off.
4 = Quad, blabla
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13/13
Ok, well I pretty much got straight up served at last night's weekly Legacy tournament. Here's the run-down -
12 people showed up, a decent number for a weekly Legacy show. I ran the following -
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
3 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Dread Return
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
//////
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Nature's Claim
4 Ashen Ghoul
1 Ichorid
1 Grizzlebrand
1 Blazing Archon
1 Massacre Wurm
Round 1 vs Kade playing Doomsday :
Game 1 - I've never played against this deck so I had no idea on how to approach it. Kade is one of the more solid players at our events so I knew I had some work cut out for me. He won the die roll so I'm on the play. Kade spends a couple turns sculpting while I dredge like crazy and keep making tokens. I can't seem to hit a Cabal Therapy to save my life, but Ichorids and tokens are going the distance. I have him down to 2 when he combos out and wins.
Game 2 - Not sure how to sb, I leave well enough alone and try to race. I think I did shuffle in 3 or 4 and then take the same ones out just so I looked smart. We both mulligan to 4. Kade asks if I want to draw and move to game 3, I decline thinking my deck mulligans decent so I may be in good shape here. I was right. I took 3 from my own Tarnished Citadel, that would be the only damage I would take all game. Kade dies to a horde of zombie tokens and recurring Ichorids.
Game 3 - I mulligan to 4 and still don't find a decent hand or any lands. Kade has 3 turns to do what ever he wants while I sit and watch him goldfish. I never draw a land and he combos out for the win.
(0-1)
Round 2 vs Henrey playing Goblins :
Game 1 - I've never seen Henrey before, so he is a newer player. Rough intro to our tournaments, but hey. I mulligan to 5 this time. Henrey makes a few goblins and they are looking pretty snazzy. He beats me down to 11 while I'm tearing apart his hand with Cabal Therapy. Finally I throw a Flame-Kin Zealot and a huge horde of tokens at him for lethal.
Game 2 - I swapped the Flame-Kin Zealot for the sb Massacre Wurm, just in case Goblins got out of hand. Henrey mulligans to 5 while I keep my opening 7. I dredge half the deck on turn 1 with that awesome Gemstone Mine, Lion's Eye Diamond, Breakthrough, cracking Diamond for 3 red, then Faithless Looting routine hitting a couple Cabal Therapys off my Narcomoebas. By turn 3 Henrey is dead to a swarm of tokens attacking for 12 each turn.
(1-1)
Round 3 vs Dave playing Dark Zoo :
Game 1 - Ahh, my good friend Dave, you again. We joke a bit about having just done this 4 days ago across town. This time Dave is playing his own deck though and he has just the answer for me. Dave wins the die roll, so again I'm on the draw. Dave leads with turn 1 Green Sun's Zenith for Dryad Arbor. I spend my turn 1 on a Careful Study. Dave sees my turn with a turn 2 Scavenging Ooze and proceeds to eat my dredger out of the yard. The rest of this match was all Dave and that Scavenging Ooze.
Game 2 - I'm not sure how to handle the Ooze so I don't sb anything and hope to race him. I know Dave only has the single Ooze in the deck from previous conversations. I open with Cabal Therapy naming "Scavenging Ooze", which seemed like a good play. It isn't there. I think "Sweet". Dave top decks the Ooze and it lands on turn 2 and this one is much the same as last game. I can't do anything about it and it goes the distance, eating everything important to me along the way.
(1-2)
Round 3 vs Reese playing Maverick :
Game 1 - Oh boy, more decks with Ooze in them! Reese is also a good friend and I know she runs 3 Scavenging Ooze maindeck. So this should be great fun!I get a good hand and start dredging right away. Reese answers with what looked to be the same play as the last round, turn 1 Green Sun's Zenith for Dryad Arbor, turn 2 Scavenging Ooze with mana to immediately start eating stuff. I can't handle the Scavenging Ooze and this one is all Reese.
Game 2 - Again, not really sure how to answer the Ooze other than race it so I leave well enough alone. I remember thinking to myself "Wow, them Firestorms I replaced with those Ashen Ghouls sure would be nice right about now!" Not to mention that the Ghouls never came in handy all night.
Game 3 - Reese lays a land and passes. I open with turn 1 Cabal Therapy naming Green Sun's Zenith, thinking she wouldn't have the Ooze and I could take the method of getting it. Guess what, she had the Ooze and not the Zenith. In the back of my mind I remembered this from earlier in this thread -
Some day I'll learn, but not today. To follow up her turn 2 Scavenging Ooze, Reese also added a triple Extirpate targeting my Ichorids, Bridge From Below and my Narcomoebas some where along the way too. Wow, that was fun!Cabal Therapy is easy. Simply think of the card that totally wrecks your deck. Say that card in your mind. Then say that card out loud while you cast Cabal Therapy. It's that simple.
(1-3)
So to wrap this one up, I suck.
Looks like a lot of people are losing to their selves lately, including myself.
I've played Quadlazer, and then a 14 lands build, and I've had terrible experiences with both.
I keep reading reports of people going to 4 or 5 cards very, very often... I wonder if it's just lack of luck, or if we should be playing more lands. I mean, back in the non-LED era, I used to play 15 lands and it seemed much better in terms of consistency.
I recently switched from the standard 12 lands to 13 by adding the single Tarnished Citadel. I think it helped. What I found too often with the typical Quadlazer 12 land setup was that I often didn't have but a single land in my opening hand and would end up with no hand before finding a second. Not that it was a major deal, but I didn't really like it because it seemed like the Cephalid Coluseums were never usable since I had no mana to activate them. It seemd like adding just that 1 land changed things a ton. But I still found myself mulliganing to the typical "not finding a dreger or a way to pitch it" situation.
I tend to mull pretty agressive with this deck. If I don't see a dredger, a discard outlet AND a way to play that discard outlet, I tend to ship it. So I find myself mulliganing often. I could be playing that wrong, but if I can't do what the deck does right away, it seems like the best course is to ship it.
The same situation seems to happen to me often, does adding the ninth rainbow land help that much?
Dredge is a deck that takes quite a bit of time to really get good at, just keep working at it. You need to know the deck very well in order to beat the gy hate cards. As far as people disliking the deck that doesn't really ever change, you just learn to take lots of enjoyment in their losing.
So to wrap this one up, I suck.
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
I was quite a bit happier with the 9th rainbow land. I found myself able to actually use those Coluseums more often due to having enough land in my opening hand to set me up for that turn 2 situation to happen.
I won't say it's "right", but it seemed to work more often than before.
I'll try it and see, it definitely won't hurt the deck and I can cut the Zealot for it leaving my DR target as a troll
Well at least some of you are starting to come around to playing more land. Im up to 16 lands and LED. Granted I run an unusual list, and two of those land are Dakmor Salvage(which I know doesn't actually help cast many spells). I tend to think of the Salvage as a hybrid land/dredger which is very situational, but even without them I'm up to 10 rainbow lands.
I find it odd that Quadlaser is supposed to be the epitome of consistency, but the inconsistent aspect of a low land count that works against that strategy.
It's not a question of "comming around" to play more land, we've always been trying to play more land, it's creating a consensus on what cards can and can't be cut for land that's been the issue. Between the debate for 10, 11 or 12 dredgers, 3 or 4 Cabal Therapies, 2, 3 or 4 Putrid Imps, 2, 3 or 4 Ichorid, X Dread Return and X Targets it's difficult to get the exact set of combinatorics "just right"
I've played the deck for an extremely long time, and I'm still not certain whether or not the 12th dredger is more valuable than an extra land as it is.
What's hard about this?
11 Dredgers
4 Therapies
4 Imps
2 Ichorids (2 more side)
2 DR
1 Target.
14-15 land, depending on the day of the week.
I thought this was common knowledge...
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I wish it was that easy. You clearly haven't played Dredge post Surgical Extraction.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
Koby, the mother of runes and Knights of the reliquary are over there. These are vegtables errr.. dredgers. Plus I'm fairly confident that PImps and Ichorids are no longer the best options for the deck. Watch as I get crucified for this...
Final. There is no debate over Therapies. It's just flat out WRONG to play less than 4.
Over the last few pages I have been an advocate for a higher land count and have been near castrated for it. Soon after several posts express an interest in more lands.
common knowledge =/ applied mathematics
Your list equals 62 to 63 cards as well, successful troll is successful?
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