Bloodghast isn't new, nor is it good and we've been debating the number of dredgers and lands in the deck long before you joined the forum.Originally Posted by JBulko
Don't be a dick. It's not constructive.
Bloodghast is good in the right shell. I'll continue to prove that through results.
Yes, there is a debate over the number of dredgers. Where do you see anyone disputing the existence of said debate?
I can't express the ridiculousness of your personal attack on me based solely on my joined date? WTF really? Makes me think you're legally required to wear a helmet. As if tenure is required to argue points in this forum.
I'm not certain where you perceived your personal attack from, but it's apparent you clearly aren't aware of the entirety of this thread or the threads that came before it, otherwise you wouldn't be claiming to have "pioneered" 15+ land configurations as if it had never been considered before your posts.
You're advocating 16 lands, 2 of which are Dakmor Salvage and don't count, and the 4 Cephalid Coliseum and 9 to 12 MD gold lands have been tried before repeatedly. I suggest you read the entirety of the thread, as well as the X threads that came before it to get some perspective on how we developed Dredge as a community, because a lot of these suggestions have been brought up, thoroughly tested and dismissed before.
Regarding Bloodghast, the problem with the card is that it requires Darkmor Salvage, Undiscovered Paradise or Dread Returns and Sun Titan etc, which are either near worthless in and of themselves or worse than the alternatives as supporting cards. Bloodghast doesn't have the haste or the power to win quickly and thru' Nimble Mongoose, nor does it have the self sacrificing effect to activate bridge tokens. Furthermore post-board, Bloodghast is weaker to Surgical Extraction than Ichorid because it relies on being played in numbers of 3+ to have any real value with Landfall. Crypt activations that remove your graveyard will eliminate the critical pieces you need to recur Bloodghasts where Ichorid will just be able to RFG any black creature as it comes. The card also has pretty horrific synergy with Breakthrough and Lions Eye Diamond, which leads to some fairly awkward situations and unkeepable hands on low mulligan counts.
I'm not certain 4 Cabal Therapies is wrong, altho' I hate it, if you're playing 3 Dread Return and 1 Flayer of the Hatebound or 2 Dread Return and 1 Griselbrand and 1 Flame Kin Zealot it's possible the relative speed in terms of slowing the opponent down vs speeding yourself up either offsets itself or is in favor of the 3/3 or 3/2 split.
The problem I personally have with Dread Return based Dredge lists is that they completely disregard convergeance between the MD and the SB for games 2+, where you have to SB out both the Dread Return and LED packages more often than not and are either losing SB space to brining in the 3rd Ichorid, 4th Cabal Therapy, 4th Putrid Imp or Xth land. Essentially you have to lose addittional SB space in order to turn from pure combo into aggro combo and the pure combo route isn't actually addressing any particular "need" of the deck as far as I'm aware so all you are doing is cannabalizing SB space for your post-board transformation, and these are the actual games that matter when it really counts.
I feel like most of this has been pointed out before by people who have really long time experience with Dredge, and your adolescent name calling really isn't going to make your arguments any more legitimate. People aren't castrating you for adding more lands, it's more removing Ichorid and all copies of Putrid Imp (which I can kind of sympathize with as I have a love hate relationship with Putrid Imp myself) and comming off as a brat that irritates people.
Dredge is the kind of deck whose power level is so absurd and unfair that anyone can win with it despite critical optimization errors in the MD and perhaps even in the SB vs unprepared metagames, this is where the "it doesn't really matter what you do with Dredge because it's broken" mentality comes from. And while I'm pretty open to entertaining the Dread Return variants and LEDless variants to see the trade offs in speed, utility and consistency I don't think your build really does anything relevant game 1 that you aren't going to seriously pay for when facing hate game 2+.
Edit: I seem to be having problems with post, edit and quotations from the software logging me out, so if any of this is disjointed I apologize.
Hi!
First of all I'm spanish, so sorry for my english. I want to talk to you about the more extended point of view of the deck in Spain. There is an standar LEDdredge list that looks like this one:
LEDdredge 1st of 131 by Adrià Romero:
3 Golgari thug
3 ichorid
4 Golgari grave-troll
4 narcomoeba
4 putrid imp
4 stinkweed imp
1 dread return
4 breakthrough
4 cabal therapy
4 careful study
4 faithless looting
4 bridge from below
4 lion's eye diamond
1 undiscovered paradise
4 cephalid coliseum
4 city of brass
4 gemstone mine
SB:
1 elesh norn
2 undiscovered paradise
4 nature's claim
1 darkblast
3 ancient grudge
1 angel of despair
1 iona
2 gravecrawler
MD list is like quadlizer -1 G. thug -1 ichorid +1 DR +1 U. paradise. Those changes are because Dread return is a fast way of making tons of zombiesand and is a free side slot if you don't need any DR target from sideboard. The thug is cut in favour of the 9th gold land, this is because of mulligans. Why U. paradise rather than Tharnised citadel? Maybe is worst when you want to activate the coliseum, but in a meta full of RUG tempo 3 damage seems to be very painfull.
The side is very usual here. Elesh, AoD, Iona like DR targets, maybe now we can cut Iona for another gravecrawler, what makes me go to another point of the side. Gravecrawler + U. paradise. I'm not comfortable with any other "come back" creature, cause noone is so awesome like Ichorid, but if I have to choose I would choose gravecrawler or ashen ghoul, nether shadow is to weak and bloodghast doesn't shine in LEDdredge builds. Tireless tribe is an option too. 4 nature's claim, not much to talk about this one. 3 ancient grudge, maybe now, we can make an splith here: 1 ancient grudge/ 2 memory's journey or maybe 3 chain of vapor.
I have never claimed to pioneer any aspect of my decklist. I am merely a proponent of each aspect of it, including a higher land count.
Darkmor Salvage, Undiscovered Paradise, Dread Returns and Sun Titan. None of these cards are bad per se, and in one-on-one comparisons against other cards they may come out as the lesser of the two cards with consistency in mind, but the package vs. package comparison shows a faster, more powerful set of cards. When they interact with each other the synergy is very powerful.
The interaction with Breakthrough and LED can be clunky but that's the trade off for a better choice of cards.
I'm a bit puzzled with your analysis of Therapy. The card is most often cast from the GY, so I'm confused as to how generating multiple 2/2's and the actual effect of therapy isn't just straight up good. I guess I'm asking why you feel that therapy lacks acceleration for Dredge ?
Several of the complaints raised here are based off the more traditional sideboard plans. I think that many of them are not relevant when considering a non-traditional board, as I have come to prefer. The transformational board does require some of the aspects that I have included in the maindeck. I think arguments can be made against your points even when considering traditional sideboards.
I rarely found it necessary to board out LEDs and the entire Dread Return package. The targets may come out routinely, but Dread Return still has major potential to create small hordes, even if it is met with a counter. All of the traditional SB cards are reactive. The damage is already done. Ashen Ghoul is somewhat of an exception here, but makes the deck more mana hungry, a problem that is NOT rectified by simply siding in one more land.
The FKZ/DR package does fulfill a need, a need for speed. The overwhelming power that Dredge is able to amass in just one to two turns is best put to use as a combo kill. Along with some discard in the form of multiple therapies, it can be safer than other combo decks to go off early against permission decks. Slow Dredge just does not invoke that fear, it's always going to be "I'm dead next turn unless..." More importantly, I don't see the cannibalization of SB spots that you're claiming to exist.
Ichorids. They're not only sub-par, they're glacial in comparision. They may be more ideal in Quadlaser. Quadlaser is not combo-aggro. It's a GY-dependent aggro deck with an engine in the dredge ability. It takes some assembling to get the engine going, discard outlet/dredger/land, but that's not a combo. both Ichorids and Bloodghasts require some other card to trigger it, but Ichorid only comes back once a turn. Bloodghast can be returned to play twice in the turn that combo(DR/FKZ) dredge "goes off." Once with a land and again from the Sun Titan. When this happens the amount of tokens that can be generated is far greater then the potential that Ichorids have. On top of that Ichorids can't enter play until the turn AFTER they are dredged, the same is not true for Bloodghasts. The combo version kills with hordes, not single Ichorid attacks, so Nimble Mongoose is hardly a concern. It's not the 2 power vs the 3 power with haste that decides this issue for me. It's the amount of tokens I can generate in a given turn. Ichorid not only requires end of turn to most often generate a token(slow) but also increases the chance your Bridges will get prematurely removed through combat. Ichorid is not a bad card for Dredge, it's just not the best option. And if you play less Ichorids your reliance on PImps goes down, I perceive this as a benefit as I am of the opinion that is is the worst discard outlet. Ideally the draw spells can be used for Dredging, but that doesn't always happen, and when you actually draw cards you have more options. You can see more land or dredgers, even another draw spell.
Relying on the absurd power level alone is a mistake. The deck becomes much less powerful with each turn the opponent gets. It comes down to a fundamental question, Is the perceived consistency of Quadlaser better than combo speed? I just don't think the improved consistency is worth the speed you have to give up.
sigh...
I mean Ashen ghoul, gravecrawcler, bloodghast, nether shadow..
@Jbulko: So you think Ichorid is not the best. Maybe all people playing dredge is wrong and you are right. I don't know. Maybe. The most important thing for dredge is consistency. G1 80% of times we will win with any version, so make a consistency maindeck for those G2, G3 matches when you need to be slow and constant.
One point I have tried to make is that the difference in consistency between the Quadlaser and combo lists may not be worth the loss of speed/utility.
To your point, I do not necessarily agree that you need to slow the deck down for G2 & G3. Those who like the Quadlaser lists appear to be all about consistency.
How much more consistent is it than the combo list? And is that increased consistency worth it? I don't think it is.
This is the question it's all about and there is certainly not a 100% true answer to it.
What happens more often?
1. that you lose a game where you were able to go off and dump half your deck into the graveyard, but you didn't find the tools to kill your opponent.
2. that additional graveyard-relevant cards that are dead in your opener flood your opening hands and make otherwise good hands unkeepable.
In my expierience, the second case happens way more often. This is the reason people moved away from LED in the pre-Lootings era and eschewed extensive DR packages for additional lands and controlled discard. And in the present it is the reason for me to drop DR packages from my lists and try to achieve the best possible consistency. The best consistency you can possibly get, mathematically speaking, is the quadlaser list with 2-3 additional lands over the 4th Ichorid and 1-2 Putrid Imps or the 12th Dredger.
As of Bloodghast, I've tried that card enough in the past and I was always disappointed by it. The sacrifices you have to make in order to make it work (more Paradises, Salvage) have been a huge letdown for me. If it works for you, go ahead and run it.
As of more lands, I've been advocating that for half a year, so it's really nothing new. The difference is that I don't troll people that do it differently.
Someone running an unusual list with unusual choices should not flood a very good thread by claiming his choices are nothing but the best. Stop doing that and start having good discussions. And be less vulgar and, we are adult people and I honestly don't see why I would even listen to such immature words; you're only hurting your own credibility.
Like everything in every deck and every debate about inclusions: use whatever you are comfortable with.
I am very happy with the quadlazer list. JBulko is happy with the combo list. It all depends on your playstyle, and your metagame.
One thing I want to point out in the whole explosiveness vs consistency debate: you cannot really compare them. You cannot ask the question: If I didn't/did play Dread Return, would I lose in this situation? You play both versions differently. I would say that you are more inclined to 'go all in' with the combo version, whereas in the same situation you wouldn't with the quadlazer list, just because you know that you have a chance for a blowout Dread Return.
Correct me if I'm wrong here.
In the end, only consistent results matter.
Hi,
I'm sorry to interrupt your little argument here with my post but I need some quick help. I will play this list tonight as a first try to dredge. I have played Legacy for a long time and am well experienced in "regular magic" as RUG/Maverick/SnT etc. What should I board out and in vs different matchups like RUG/UW/Maverick/Sneak/Reanimate/Burn:
// Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
1 [OD] Tarnished Citadel
// Creatures
3 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
3 [TO] Putrid Imp
// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [DKA] Faithless Looting
4 [TO] Breakthrough
2 [RAV] Darkblast
//Sideboard
4 [WWK] Nature's Claim
3 [IA] Ashen Ghoul
3 [ON] Chain of Vapor
2 [OD] Tireless Tribe
2 [ISD] Memory's Journey
1 [OD] Tarnished Citadel
Well ya. I like being able to play Magic. Same reason I stopped playing RDW in Standard once Kor Firewalker was printed. I would not play 4 Breakthrough either.
Last edited by Koby; 07-31-2012 at 12:27 PM.
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
I do wonder how is Gravecrawler in Quadlazer lists?
I can pick up a few and think I might if I can't find Ashen Ghouls (and I guess the advantage of having multiple crawlers helps)
Currently Playing:
Dredge, The Rock, Lands, Spiral Tide, Affinity
Played in a 20 person tournament last night, went 4-1 and ended up 5th on breakers (it cut to top 4). Here's the list I played:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
1 Firestorm (I saw two elves players, a goblins player and a merfolk player so I figured I'd try some spice. Probably worse than the 4th Imp)
2 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge From Below
SB:
3 Bloodghast
1 Dakmor Salvage
3 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Ghoultree (these are great against Surgical/Cage)
Round 1 Death & Taxes
G1: It's G1 against a mono-white deck.
G2: He has surgicals, which is weird, but he surgicals my first troll and I have an imp
Round 2 MUD
G1: I have 12 lands left in my deck on turn 2, and instead of casting Breakthrough with just a Stinkweed Imp to dredge I careful study looking for land. This is a mistake and I lose because I needed to explode that turn as he can lay Chalice/Trinisphere/Golem and lock me out if I whiff
G2: He draws 2 Crypts and a Grafdigger's Cage
Round 3: RUG
G1: I start slow dredging and eventually assemble some guys and a few bridges. I therapy him and see a hand of Goyf and Goose so I Dread Return Ichorid to make more zombies instead of the chumpable troll
G2: I board in the Bloodghasts, Salvage, and Ghoultrees and kill him with some 10/10s
Round 4: Pox
G1: He doesn't do anything relevant and dies
G2: He bogs me twice, but I sandbag dredgers. I boarded in the Bloodghasts and kill him with Ghasts/Ichorids (he keeps playing Ratchet Bombs)
Round 5: RUG
G1: He mulls to five and loses to therapies
G2: Boarded the same as above, he casts a Grafdigger's Cage on turn 1 and I kill him with Ghoultrees
I'm going to be honest- the first Surgical Extraction should never be backbreaking. The second one is obviously worse, but if you board in supplements to Ichorid I think you should be fine. I'm not a huge fan of Bloodghast MD but I do think it is a better sideboard option than Ashen Ghoul/Nether Spirit because you have complete control over when it comes into play (assuming you have a land).
Also, if you've never tried Ghoultree, it punishes players for trying to value you out with Crypt and makes Grafdigger's Cage look ridiculous.
I should also note that I tend to DR Ichorids a lot, usually more than trolls unless I can therapy there hand because right now it in legacy it seems like 3 2/2's > 1 18/18
Last edited by woremak; 07-31-2012 at 12:45 PM. Reason: forgot Ghoultree in the SB!
Is Ghoultree better than Ingot Chewer against Cage?
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
I think it sidesteps Cage, which is an obvious plus. They do work well in conjunction, which is why I run Ingot Chewer, but Ghoultree is also very good against Surgical.
Honestly, Ingot Chewer might be better against Cage but I think Ghoultree is just better unless it's expected (which for now, at least, I don't think it is)
Congratulations to Brambilla Mario who made it to the 2nd place at Arcore (MI) 5ª Tappa SLC 2012 (1121 players) with LED Dredge!
Mario's Decklist:
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Griselbrand
2 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Dread Return
3 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
SIDEBOARD:
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Ray of Revelation
2 Firestorm
1 Darkblast
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Terastodon
1 Angel of Despair
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Cabal Therapy
I've always preferred lists builded on consistency, but lately I've come around a little.
Quadlazer is nice, but I don't think 12 lands is enough, and we have many Maverick players here in Brazil, so maybe I'll give this list a shot.
The only thing I didn't like in the main deck is the number of dredgers, does anyone have an idea about how to fit the 11th?
drop 1 land.
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
Well, I'd drop one of the two Dread Return targets before I'd do that. You really only need the one target, not two, in the main deck.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
