[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[thefringthing]

I disagree regarding the Badlands; I think it's the natural inclusion for a 14th land. Occasionally you want to cast Duress one turn and Rite of Flame the next without digging out a second land.

I am starting to waffle on the zero win-conditions maindeck plan. It's not actively bad—I'm not encountering situations where it's screwing me—just makes the mana requirements for a lot of lines slightly awkward. I'm not really convinced that Empty the Warrens is worth of maindeck inclusion as long as Batterskull exists though. I guess it might come down to a metagame call: lots of Delver = Empty, lots of Stoneblade = Tendrils.

[Dark Ritual]

Xantid is in the board mainly for merfolk and sneak and show. Against merfolk, making 10 dudes turn 1 is just as solid if not better than xantid. And in Bahamuth's list, he still runs 3 xantid swarms in the SB. Making the sneak and show and merfolk matchups extremely favorable. Literally the only thing against siding in 3 EtW's is the ad nauseam plan. And if we SB in 3 EtW's I imagine ad nauseam would then be a plan B with EtW on turn 1 being the main plan.

On that japanese foil xantid, I bid 90. Then someone bid 91. Not sure who. Anyways, I couldn't bid back as I didn't have access to the internet. Maybe Pokezel bid 91? I'm not sure, I might ask him this weekend. Either way, 91 for a japanese foil xantid is a pretty good deal considering how hard it is to find them.

I'm on the fence about badlands. I think it's good enough, but at the same time I can't stand the card sometimes namely the times where it's my only land in hand and I cannot cast cantrips. It's very tempting to cut it for a volcanic island or a tundra if we go the silence/5c route.

People can keep on saying probe is bad with ad nauseam all they want. Flipping over a 1 drop rarely matters with AdN. On top of that, you aren't required to cast the card after AdN has resolved. If you're relying on probe to draw you into the win post ad nauseam, expect to be disappointed. And I'd rather be flipping over a 1 drop versus a 4 drop like tendrils or another ad nauseam. Typically, I just don't care what I flip with ad nauseam as you usually flip over the win with the card quite easily as drawing 20 cards typically wins the game.

I'm not a fan of 0 win cons maindeck. EtW is absolutely fine right now, since RUG cannot beat the card on the draw or when they're tapped out. Heck, lists are cutting spell snare and stifle making EtW that much better. If they counter a copy of EtW with a spell pierce, I'll shrug and say "can you race my 8 goblin tokens?" Also agree with Bryant in that it's a lot better to have a win con maindeck, so you don't have to go infernal tutor -> wish -> EtW if infernal tutor is the only tutor in your hand.

[egosum]

As werid as it may sound I 'm testing 2x Pithing Needle in the sideboard in the place of Xantids. Why is it? Well, Xantid is there to improve the Reanimator, Sneak & Show and Merfolk Match up. Pithing may be as useful as xatind in 2 of the three pairings: against reanimator and sneak and show shuts Griselbrand down, moreover in the S&S can take the sneak attack on if we feel it is necessary (as the info taken with duress/IoK/Probe may reveal). Though against the menfolks kinda sucks (well you can always Needle on Vial or Cursecatcher, being the latter a bit more useful, but is not of relevance). But the point is that Needle may be brought against CB Top swell, for shutting down the top (obi.) reducing CB efficiency quite a lot for just one colorless mana. Xantid is simply awful against CB-Top. I would recommend anyone who has a metagame infested with Miracles-Top to try it.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Most productive this thread's been in months.

[Tammit67]

Most productive this thread's been in months.

Bryant finally found a change he likes that others aren't so eager to follow him on

[emidln]

I've been testing a list almost identical to Bahamuth's on cockatrice and really like the way it plays. I think I'm at 2 volc, 1 usea so I have the third land to support pulverize better, but it's otherwise identical.

Some things to note: As sorely tempted as you might be to cut the ETW for Wish #4, ETW enables this really common line of play: Probe, Ritual, LED, IT->10 goblins. This is extremely powerful and a very simple way to beat common decks. That you can flashback therapy after ETW is wonderful for beating Batterskull after they SFM for it.

[beebles]

I kind of want to play this deck at the scg tournament in DC this weekend and have some beginner questions. Still not sure though since it seems too hard.

Do you board in the Ill gotten gains or does it always stay in the board as a wish target? It seems a difficult to use wish target to me. I mean you are basically need to both have the Burning wish (to get the Igg in the first place), and also a Infernal Tutor in hand or in the graveyard right to set up the loop right?

It seems a lot easier in the main deck against non blue decks--just need a few rituals/leds and an infernal tutor and they are more or less dead right? Seems better than Ad Nauseam against stuff like goblins or zoo...

What do you guys think of just running Karakas or two in the board as the hate against maverick? It seems to be the only easy way around Mom + hate bear and it sort of helps against wasteland... Only have 1-2 slots free in the board though. Also I only own 1 and they are pricy. Board now is:

3 Deathmark
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Inquistion of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Past In Flames
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Karakas
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tendrils
1 Empty the Warrens

[thefringthing]

A Burning Wish in hand and an Infernal Tutor in the graveyard happens more often than you might think. You can board in Ill-Gotten Gains against non-blue decks but I usually don't bother.

I don't think Karakas is useful against Maverick, but it might be okay against Show and Tell and Reanimator. The sideboard you listed doesn't have Xantid Swarm, which is extremely helpful against Merfolk.

[Bryant Cook]

I don't think Karakas is useful against Maverick, but it might be okay against Show and Tell and Reanimator. The sideboard you listed doesn't have Xantid Swarm, which is extremely helpful against Merfolk.

I've actually considered Karakas over Deathmark in my sideboard before.

I disagree regarding the Badlands; I think it's the natural inclusion for a 14th land. Occasionally you want to cast Duress one turn and Rite of Flame the next without digging out a second land.

I am starting to waffle on the zero win-conditions maindeck plan. It's not actively bad—I'm not encountering situations where it's screwing me—just makes the mana requirements for a lot of lines slightly awkward. I'm not really convinced that Empty the Warrens is worth of maindeck inclusion as long as Batterskull exists though. I guess it might come down to a metagame call: lots of Delver = Empty, lots of Stoneblade = Tendrils.

I would play a basic Island/Swamp over a Badlands. The turn one Duress/Turn two Rite of Flame hand without needing blue/white mana is bullshit.

[jjjoness']

I've actually considered Karakas over Deathmark in my sideboard before.

Iirc lejay has been playing MD Karakas in his DDFT lists for quite a while now (another 2 in the board, I believe).
However, maindecking Karakas is out of the question here. I don't know if the reusability of Karakas makes up for the possibility to kill non-legendary creatures with Deathmark.

[Bryant Cook]

Iirc lejay has been playing MD Karakas in his DDFT lists for quite a while now (another 2 in the board, I believe).
However, maindecking Karakas is out of the question here. I don't know if the reusability of Karakas makes up for the possibility to kill non-legendary creatures with Deathmark.

I'm just curious, what non-Legendary creatures other than Cannonist does this deck care about? There's still Grapeshot for Cannonist.

[SaberTooth]

i think that tes doesn't really need more removal (or creature hate in general), but im trying to put some DoN. there's a lot of maverick in my meta

i wanna try etw MD too... seems good. at first i was like "etw instead of toa? nono", but now seems so good

a little question: vs burn g2/g3, what do you think about move ad nauseam to the SB to use ill-gotten gains MD?

sry 4 my english

[emidln]

If you believe that you can deal with Canonist in other ways (Pulverize, Deathmark, Shattering Spree, Grapeshot, IoK), Karakas is a far better solution to Thalia/Teeg than Dread of Night, particularly if you are playing fewer than 4.

[Dark Ritual]

Karakas is pretty great in the sneak and show matchup and reanimator matchup as well. When you bounce iona and go off, the reanimator player will probably think to himself "karakas? In storm combo?" Against sneak and show it is great against their show and tell plan when you put karakas in off of show and tell. It's a little weak to sneak attack if they have multiple red sources, but you don't want them to get to that point anyways.

The only creatures that karakas does not bounce that we care about (not exactly relevant creatures but still) are true believer, meddling mage, glowrider, and phyrexian revoker. Stoneforge mystic to an extent, because it would be quite saucy to bounce SFM so they can't cheat batterskull into play against our EtW plan.

Karakas in our maindeck doesn't make much sense at all. As a sideboard plan over deathmark and other such options, I'm not sure. The reason it works so well in doomsday is because they have infinite library manipulation and can find karakas with doomsday to answer teeg.

You don't -need- infernal tutor in the yard in order to abuse ill-gotten gains. You can have another burning wish, which seems better actually now that tendrils is out of the maindeck. And I can't count the number of times I've drawn extra wishes/tutors, it's sometimes annoying when you want to draw mana but instead you draw yet another copy of IT or BW.

[Bryant Cook]

Karakas is pretty great in the sneak and show matchup and reanimator matchup as well. When you bounce iona and go off, the reanimator player will probably think to himself "karakas? In storm combo?" Against sneak and show it is great against their show and tell plan when you put karakas in off of show and tell. It's a little weak to sneak attack if they have multiple red sources, but you don't want them to get to that point anyways.

If I were to play Karakas part of me would want to play two to ensure I drew it against these match-ups. However, the only feasible way to add a second to the sideboard would be to choose between Ill-Gotten Gains / Past in Flames or cut a discard spell.

[Dark Ritual]

Personally I would cut the past in flames if you were to run karakas. Past in flames has been super meh for me though and I'm not that big a fan of the card. If you have no chants I would cut IGG, as no chants makes IGG a lot worse. I'm a fan of a SB discard spell, always have been. If I don't have a SB discard spell it can be rather annoying. Karakas as a 1 of in the board seems rather pointless. 2 is the minimum in my eyes as well, otherwise you're not going to be able to find the miser copy in time most likely.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Sounds like a European TES list.

tldr; jajajajajaja

[emidln]

Personally I would cut the past in flames if you were to run karakas. Past in flames has been super meh for me though and I'm not that big a fan of the card. If you have no chants I would cut IGG, as no chants makes IGG a lot worse. I'm a fan of a SB discard spell, always have been. If I don't have a SB discard spell it can be rather annoying. Karakas as a 1 of in the board seems rather pointless. 2 is the minimum in my eyes as well, otherwise you're not going to be able to find the miser copy in time most likely.

Re: Past in Flames

Have you ever resolved this card? Even once? You realize it says that stuff in your graveyard has flashback right? For the same mana you thought was a bargain the first time? Meh must mean "wins the game on the spot" where you're from.

tl;dr: Play Past in Flames if you like winning.

If you wanted to play a sideboard with 2-3 Karakas in the UBR list, you do it like this:

4 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Pulverize
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Past in Flames
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
3 Karakas
1 Massacre

You board like this: -4 Duress, +3 Karakas, +1 Massacre. If you really want to, you can bring in an ETW or the 4th Therapy for a Ponder.

You might think you're going to lose to people that overload on enchantments (leyline white plus others), but you still have ETW and the fact that people who play Leyline of Sanctity plus other hateful enchantments typically dwell in the loser's bracket. That said, you can probably justify a singleton Chain of Vapor if you really wanted to.

Note how you can elegantly still kill Teeg (Grapeshot), Thalia (Massacre), and Canonist (Pulverize or Grapeshot) all in g1 (although admittedly, combinations would be tricky).

[Tombstalker]

How necessary is IGG now that PiF exists? I like IGG but so many decks I face play blue that it mostly stays in the board. Against non blue I do board it in but often PiF would have done the same thing without giving back a kotr or other shit I spent time discarding. I play a UBr list btw and im thinking of removing it for..something, not sure what yet which is why its still there.

[KevinTrudeau]

How necessary is IGG now that PiF exists? I like IGG but so many decks I face play blue that it mostly stays in the board. Against non blue I do board it in but often PiF would have done the same thing without giving back a kotr or other shit I spent time discarding. I play a UBr list btw and im thinking of removing it for..something, not sure what yet which is why its still there.

Not as necessary, but still pretty necessary; IGG is the pain-free storm generator for when you have LEDs as your fast mana (you usually find the second with an Infernal Tutor), and Past in Flames is the pain-free storm generator for when you have (minimum) three Rituals (can be, say, 2 Rituals and 1 Rite, or 2 Rites and 1 Ritual; you usually find the second with an Infernal Tutor) as your fast mana and three initial mana. Basically, if you cut IGG, you cut out one half (the half I've found to be much more common vs. nonblue decks) of the ways you win with Tendrils (discounting storming for 10 without the use of a generator). The lack of Chants in a UBr list certainly hurts it (as well as Diminshing Returns), and it might be correct to cut it if you've found a board you like and you really, really want that last slot, but don't if you don't have to.

@emidln— not playing an Empty in the maindeck? Also, agreed that PiF is probably (not certainly mind you, esp. now that naturally Tendrilsing them is easier with four Probe) correct to play; UW matchup gets a tad worse without it, although you're exaggerating its worth just a bit.