emidln, your suggested sb intrigues me. 4 etw? What decks would you want 3 md ETW against (leaving one in the board right?) Super counter heavy blue decks, that don't have batterskull, like RUG and BUG or something? Do you board out ad nauseam and/or tendrils entirely when on this plan?
Yes, I have resolved past in flames. Yes, the card occasionally wins the game. However, it isn't a guaranteed win every time you cast the card. Sure the card is good. However, when I stare at my graveyard that has piles of artifacts in there the card is quite dead. Whereas when I IGG getting back double black lotus and demonic tutor I smile and proceed to win against anyone not holding countermagic or lacking countermagic in their graveyard that they can cast. I just can't justify running 2 almost identical cards in the wishboard (IGG and PiF) when you could use that extra slot to improve some matchup. As for your proposed sideboard, I agree with the grand majority of it except PiF. Chain of vapor is a card I'm a huge fan of though, so I'm probably biased.
Went 2-2 with Bahamuth's list tonight. The deck was pretty solid, but the losses were to affinity and canadian thresh. Against affinity I won game 1 with ease after I therapied his cranial plating/entire clock away after he stoneforged for it. Game two he gets thalia and thorn of amethyst down (both are singletons I find out later) and I'm holding echoing truth and burning wish, however 4 mana spells are incredibly bad in a deck with 4 lands. He also boarded in a playset of spell pierce, and he pierced a mox, which was incredibly relevant. Game 3 I draw incredibly bad and lose to thalia again. I was mostly sad because I didn't have pulverize in the board to blow him out. Also lost to Ryan Overturf piloting can. thresh. Game 1 I'm on the play, probe him seeing no force of will. Make 10 goblins. Win. Game 2, I try to combo off but he stops my second rite of flame with a spell pierce. I make 4 goblins at one point, he gets 2 threshed mongeese. I lose. Game 3 he flips 2 delvers and I mull to 5 not so strong cards and lose.
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Originally Posted by Vacrix
The difference between Tendrils of Agony and Empty the Warrens is that Empty the Warrens is both a business spell in your opening hand and a secondary Infernal Tutor target that allows you to go off on turn one for only four mana. Hands that consist of Gitaxian Probe, Infernal Tutor, Land, Rite of Flame, Lion's Eye Diamond, Chrome Mox, Duress are absolutely ridiculous because you can look at their hand, see no counter magic and then immediately go off on them for 12+ Goblins.
As far as what to cut for the 4th Probe, I think you should probably try SBing the Infernal Tutor if you can find the space for it. I find with cutting the 4th Chrome Mox and playing the 3rd or 4th Probe I'm not really boarding in as much disruption as I use to vs Merfolk and RUG. I find the +2 Empty the Warrens is more conservative for SB space than the 4 to 5 extra disruption slots in the common aggro-control match ups and is playable in the BANT match up as well. Honestly I only really want to SB in Xantids vs Merfolk, Sneak&Show and Reanimator, and I think it's better to be able to SB in Empty the Warrens vs Merfolk and RUG since the Sneak&Show match up really isn't that bad if they are playing Misdirection, Overmaster and Defense Grids etc. and I still think the SB slot for Bribery is well worth it just for those particular match ups anyway.
I don't really understand what you guys are doing with the UBR TES lists, what is the point of playing UBR TES if you aren't playing a MD Island and Swamp to protect your manabase? Cabal Therapy is pretty bad compared to Silence, and the only reason Burning Wish feels like the worst card in your deck is because you made it the worst card in your deck by not playing the right disruption suite to protect Diminishing Returns, and you don't have access to an effective Burning Wish target vs Sneak/Show and Reanimator without Ad Nauseam via Burning Wish->Infernal Tutor->Ad Nauseam and/or Bribery. I mean, you've pretty much castrated yourselves by having to play a shittier disruption card and a shittier win condition for no gains in manabase stability, wtf is the point of doing that exactly? More fetchlands for Brainstorm? All you've really struck upon from what I can tell is that 4 Probes are pretty good and Empty the Warrens is better than Tendrils of Agony in the main, the rest seems kind of bad IMO.
I'm not saying this is perfect, but I'd probably test something like
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Silence
3 Duress
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flames
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 City of Brass (I don't care about the life loss, I just want white mana fwiw)
4 Gemstone Mind
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Duress
1 Death Mark
1 Shattering Spree
4 Chain of Vapor
1 (Open)
I'm not a fan of Ill Gotten Gains or Grapeshot anymore, the first seems unnecessary and the second is absolutely fucking horrible at removing Thalia. The SB plan vs Maverick is just to board out all copies of Silence and Duress for 4 Chain of Vapor, 2 ETW and the Infernal Tutor.
I'm playing UBr because I don't want to play Silence. I disagree that Therapy is bad compared to Silence. I don't think the mana of this deck is good enough that I want to play protection I have to play the same turn as I'm winning. Especially with RUG being the most dominant deck.
You can't be serious about Diminishing Returns. Even without considering my opponents hand, I think Returns is terrible. BW->IT->Ad Nauseam costs 9 mana. I'm not cutting an IT for that. Bribery is such a corner case situation. Decks it's good against aren't even very popular right now, and against them, it's usually more about playing through his counters than about your method of winning the game. This is especially true with Therapy in the deck as it allows you to do EtW and flashback to get rid of his combo.
What the hell is your problem? I come here posting about my TES list my team has been running for a year to help you out, and this is your response? Very nice of you man.
"Part of me belives that Barrin taught me meditation simply to shut me up."
-Ertai, wizard adept
http://solidarityprimer.proboards85.com/index.cgi
ETW basically vs Force of Will decks. There are some times when I wouldn't ETW, but if you don't need to ETW, it likely means they're a slow and lumbering deck that will just let you duress/ts their 1-2 spells then kill them via AdN or Past in Flames.
ETW is fine vs batterskull decks as long as you aren't playing garbage like Silence. You ETW and then when they play their turn 2 SFM->Batterskull you get to attack them then flashback a therapy. Failing that, you can still Wish->Pulverize.
I don't play Tendrils in my maindeck. My maindeck is very similar to Bahamuth's:
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
I'm not entirely certain I want the basics at this point, and I might eventually concede that Gemstone Mine is better than basics + badlands (although I still wouldn't choose to play Silence/Chant). This would put me off of Pulverize, which I always regret not having.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Yes, this is the subject I want to bring up, again. Could you please elaborate on your experiences with gold lands vs. duals + basics?I'm not entirely certain I want the basics at this point, and I might eventually concede that Gemstone Mine is better than basics + badlands (although I still wouldn't choose to play Silence/Chant). This would put me off of Pulverize, which I always regret not having.
Also with the addition of 4 probe + EtW plan do you (and to any other expert storm pilots here) still feel 3-4 chrome mox is the correct number?
Lastly in the 3 color lists with probe feeding threshold is RoF still better than cabal ritual? Ive tested but I just cant tell.
Well my bags are packed and I am heading to the bus in little bit to Washington DC so no more time for tweaking. I really don't like the idea of no Tendils MD, it seems like there will likely be too many times when you go off with ad nauseam and get down too low on life to not win on the spot. Yes I undersand you wish for tendrils but no tendrils md means your Ad Nasueams are going to eat up more life those times when you reveal infernal tutors but no burning wish. Yes I know you can IT for BW but then you need 8 mana to kill them which again is going to be too hard I fear when Ad Naseaming from a relatively low life count.
I am just gonna play the Ari Lax more or less tock list, but I don't like the 2 Ad Nauseam main, gonna go with 1 Ad Nauseam main, 1 Tendrils Main and 1 ETW main.
In my testing and goldfishing I really like the md etw. I am not that proficent with the deck and I love ETW since it seems so much easier to just belch out a bunch of goblins on to the board turn 1, then to craft the perfect turn where you chant them them ad nauseam tendrils kill them.
This sideboard is hideous. Yes, Empty the Warrens is better than Tendrils in the main deck. But you shouldn't be forcing Goblin tokens down people's throats all the time. You've taken away one of the great things about this deck and that's options. With siding in Warrens there's no longer Ad Nauseam. You've made removal relevant.
You took away Xantid to help us with our problematic match-ups (Merfolk, Reanimator, and Sneak Show) but you did add a third Karakas to make up for it. Don't you think that's a bit obsessive? Two is a fine number. This sideboard also lacks a general plan against decks where protection is bad. You can't sideboard out Silences without bringing in dead lands or Empty the Warrens to lose to cards like Deed.
Massacre? Is this really needed? You already have three Karakas. Then Pulverize. This card blows - Seriously. What is the game plan against Trinisphere? Pay three mana, sacrifice two lands and lose the game?
My article should be coming out today or tomorrow that addresses this.
Therapy is a miserable card. Silence's impact on a game will have a much larger effect considering it's a must counter or lose. With therapy your opponents are free to sit back and wait for you miss or take one card and cast another. Silence has more applications and is the better card for Storm combo.
As for Returns, we get it, you don't like the card. Diminishing Returns is a fine card, perhaps you're using it wrong. It's not a last ditch effort as people make it seem. Although, I do agree with the sideboard Infernal Tutor not being correct.
Why would I care about good Ad Nauseams when I can beat RUG by boarding 3 EtW every time? They usually only have 2 postboard answers. Ad Nauseam is still very castable with 4 EtW by the way. You can just find some mana and an EtW and cast it for a ton.
Sure it's a stronger effect, but you have to cast it in your own turn. I don't think we can conclusively argue which of the cards is better anyway. I prefer Therapy.
Why would I ever decide to cast Returns if I can just make a bunch of tokens and win with it? Are you saying you will still cast Returns even if you can win through other BW targets?
"Part of me belives that Barrin taught me meditation simply to shut me up."
-Ertai, wizard adept
http://solidarityprimer.proboards85.com/index.cgi
Believe it or not, Empty the Warrens doesn't always get the job done.
It basically always does vs Rug
"Part of me belives that Barrin taught me meditation simply to shut me up."
-Ertai, wizard adept
http://solidarityprimer.proboards85.com/index.cgi
In one match-up and not even always. Some lists still pack Stifle main deck and Rough/Tumble sideboard. Your's and Emildn's list trade off options for redundancy of a single plan. This is something I don't find desirable.
Just read your article Bryant and liked it. I feel a little uncomfortable cutting down on Chrome moxes since it always seems mana is so super tight and wasteland is such a huge problem as it is. Do you think maybe trimming a ponder instead of a mox for the 3rd probe would work? I feel running 3 probes sort of makes up for missing one ponder. My logic is if you want to go off with ETW, faster ponders are going to slow you down and moxes enable more frequent turn 1 ETW swarms.
Pulverize is the most efficient way of dealing with any number of chalices*, trinispheres, or spheres. More efficient than Shattering Spree, Meltdown, H.Recall. 100%. All the time.*
*obviously lackluster vs chalice @ 6, but let's be realistic. This situation is only a karma punishment resulting from very lucky aggro loam players who want to repay you for Grapeshotting them the last 15 times you played.
I don't need to side out my protection because Therapy and Duress aren't bad when I don't want Karakas/Massacre. Silence is pretty bad, but I wouldn't play that card anyway.
3 Karakas ensures that I actually draw one in the relevant matchups. The Massacre gets sided in along with Karakas, but it's more efficient at killing Thalia or Canonist than Grapeshot, and that extra efficiences often matters vs their clock. Importantly, Karakas is a better answer to Teeg or Thalia than any other spot removal due to being unaffected by Mother of Runes and the hatebears themselves.
The sideboard for the list I posted is actually off by a card (The DCI sadly doesn't allow me 5 ETW) so there's likely a Chain of Vapor in the sb.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
I fail to see how Pulverize is better than Spree against Trinisphere. Either way youre paying three mana to blow up artifacts you might as well not lose two lands.
I guess you don't need to swap since you're playing a different (In my opinion worse) protection spell main deck. The third Karakas and Massacre should be more bounce spells. I still can't believe you're not running Xantids.
SB I was testing out last night with Bryant's manabase (though cutting a fetch or two for City of Brass #3-4 as Final Fortune suggested certainly isn't out of the question), 4 Silence/3 Thoughtseize protection split, and the fourth Probe in place of the fourth Rite of Flame (though the SB Infernal Tutor config Final Fortune suggested that would cleanly allow for a fourth Probe, basically starting game one as a lot of postboard games are, is certainly intriguing):
Core 8:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Silent Departure (could be Grapeshot/Deathmark)
1 Shattering Spree
1 Thoughtseize (could be Duress)
The rest:
4 Xantid Swarm
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
If I come to the conclusion that 4 Swarm is overkill (it probably is), change the Thoughtseize to Duress, and change the fourth Swarm to a bounce spell or something like Karakas or Slaughter Pact; basically, the fourth Swarm is the free slot. However, if one chooses not to replace Thoughtseize with the superior Duress, there's just an awesome free slot.
SB configs were:
vs. Maverick: -4 Silence, +1 Thoughtseize (if running Duress and 3 Swarm, +1 free slot), +1 Inquisition of Kozilek, +2 Empty the Warrens
vs. Canadian Threshold: -1 Infernal Tutor, -1 Ponder, and either -1 Gitaxian Probe or -1 Ad Nauseam, +1 Inquisition of Kozilek, +2 Empty the Warrens
vs. Reanimator/Sneak Attack: -4 Silence, -1 Empty the Warrens, -1 Ponder/Probe/IT, +4 Xantid Swarm, +1 Inquisition of Kozilek, +1 Thoughtseize
Toyed with the idea of bringing in the ToA vs. UW decks, by either putting a second one in the board as the French Doomsday list (there's a German list; why not call lejay's the French list?) does or just swapping out an IT; still haven't come to a conclusive board plan for that matchup.
Stop ripping on Silence, ya hear?! It's not bad. What is bad, though, or at least a lot worse, is playing Diminishing Returns without Silence. Y'all with UBr lists could probably just cut Returns, as a lot of its applications would be gone without a Chant.
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Less than four Rite of Flame is ridiculous. Don't do it.
You're probably right. I'm still just testing the ins and outs of various configurations, and since, after Chrome Mox, I consider Rite of Flame to be the worst card in the deck, I figured that would be the first one I'd try cutting after the fourth Mox. Running just three Probe and leaving Rite alone could certainly be correct.
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If you really want 4 probes, cut a burning wish. I promise you won't miss it. You won't be able to tell the difference between 3 and 4 wishes anyways, and the deck will still be as consistent.
Don't SB a Rite of Flame, you'll never Burning Wish for it and you want to have as high of a probability as possible to open, draw or cantrip into multiples. I actually think Gitaxian Probe makes Rite of Flame stronger, because the deck is essentially -4x cards between your first and second Rite of Flame. Likewise I think it makes 4xChrome Mox weaker, because the chances of drawing the second Chrome Mox are higher and that's why it's logical to cut a Chrome Mox, which is the worse card in the deck, for a Gitaxian Probe and illogical to cut a Rite of Flame for it.
As far as SBing an Infernal Tutor for the 4th Gitaxian Probe, I'm not certain whether or not it is or it isn't the right decsion, but if you do want to play the 4th Gitaxian Probe then it's either going to come down to Infernal Tutor or Ponder. And 3 Gitaxian Probe is obviously perfectly fine, I think I pretty much agree with where Bryant is taking the deck, altho' I think i prefer more Chant effects in the board to Xantid Swarms because I'm more worried about seeing RUG than Sneak/Show and Reanimator personally.
I completely disagree with cutting Burning Wish.
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