Kozilek is pretty boss, the draw 4 leaves you with a lot of CA even if Kozilek gets handled. In addition he's pretty easy to cast.
Hell, I've been thinking seriously of adding a 4th devastation tide, it's just that good.
Not sure if this is a troll or just someone who is too lazy to read. As other folks have mentioned, I comment about all the cards mentioned, and the most recent list has had 4 Devastation Tide in it for awhile.Originally Posted by Pemmin
In other news, I lost to 2x Merfolk decks to get bumped out of contention at the most recent 6 round event. Nutty draws of 3 Wastelands, Vial and Cursecatcher -> Lord of Atlantics -> Master of Pearl Trident. that was 3 of my 4 game losses, the 4th being a mulligan to 4 on zero mana sources for my first 3 hands, which would have been a turn 5 win if not for them keeping yet another 3 wasteland hand with vial.
I realize that Merfolk's success relies not on skill but rather mass-numbers of decks having that perfect pairings and then ontop of that above-average hands for a handful of the plethora of Merfolk entries to make it to Top 8/16. So looking at improbability when designing a deck is something that can drive someone mad, but it does make me wonder if I should address inherent weaknesses directly.
My teammate wanted a "simpler" version of the deck where he didn't have to make hard Force of Will choices, and went with a nearly identical list but with 3x Pithing Needle and 1+ candelabra. He faced off against just as many Merfolk decks and stomped them, but obviously faltered when he hit the combo deck. I think the idea has some merit and might explore it for a bit.
Last edited by Rock Lee; 08-05-2012 at 05:29 PM.
Just because a deck ran well against you doesn't make it a skill-less deck. If you oversimplify any decks game plan it sounds herp-derp easy. For example, play and recur lands that tap for too much mana and cast uncounterable I-win buttons.
I think you misunderstand both my point and statement.
A player making many showings in top8's indicates they have good playskill and deck selection abilities. When one of these skilled players makes repeated victories with the same deck, it shows consistency with the deck. Merfolk has never been a deck that the same players pilot to success, and thus shows a flaw in the deck's consistency, which can be due to necessary pairings, deck inconsistency or both. Merfolk is one of those "both" decks, and thus their successful showings are people who RNG win.
My point was not that my Merfolk opponents, or any merfolk opponent is skill-less, but rather that the deck has a low skill threshold, a large pairing variance and requires necessary hands against that large pairing variance.
Don't take necessary pairings as an automatically negative aspect. That is the essence of what deck design and choice is. A necessary low deck skill is also something that is not always bad. Knowing something poor is happening doesn't always enable you to negate it.
Deck inconsistency, which was what I was referring to, is entirely the problem. And I was speaking more to my deck than the Merfolk players. Anyone who follows deck archtypes and playtests realizes that Merfolk is inconsistent. That is why it is the entry level deck. It is cheap to construct and easy to play, so it is highly accessible. Once you have a card pool to move away from it, you do. This doesn't mean that it can't be brutally good when the dice are rolled in its favor.
hey rock,
i've been thinking about slinging this up on modo, but not sure what you think the best build for this likely meta:
lots of
maverick
rug delver
stoneblade
there's the occasional sneak and show, but i guess the deck just wants to beat up on those decks the most?
now i know that S&T will be very strong here, crop rotation seems bad vs 2 of the 3 decks, and candelabra seems weak here.
-rob
-rob
I'd play 3-4 crop rotation in that meta as crop rotation is at its best in response to wasteland
Rob, I'd go with a list like this:
// Lands
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [IN] Island (1)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
// Creatures
2 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AVR] Devastation Tide
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [M10] Pithing Needle
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [ZEN] Expedition Map
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 2 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 1 [CMD] Bojuka Bog
You don't need FoW against any of those matchups, except Maverick G2 when they bring in Armageddon, where flusterstorm SHOULD be sufficient if you are holding spells. Needle covers your real combo matchups and SneakyShow is already a decent pairing since S&T is liability for them. Needle also hinders the major gameplan Maverick & Rug will have against you and isn't entirely dead vs Stoneblade, which is already an amazingly good matchup.
The SB is 100% combo hate, as I'm becoming more and more inclined to prefer in most meta decks. Good luck with it. This list is similar to the list I'm trying out currently. the 2x Expedition Map is where the "wiggle room" is in the deck atm with a Needle-based build. Other options in that slot are Temporal mastery, Ponder, All is Dust, Energy Field depending on meta specifics.
Rock, is there any meta in which you would consider Sylvan Scrying over Crop Rotation, or is CR that essential to the plan?
I ran a list for several weeks with Sylvan Scrying prior to Miracle printing. A slow meta with lots of Jace, Stifles and Wastes is where Sylvan Scrying is best. I ran it while RUG was absolutely dominating and every Top 8 had 3-4 RUG lists. Since keeping a hand of 6-7 lands beats RUG, this is just as good, especially if you're running a correct toolkit for that meta. Also, any meta that loses to one of your tutor targets. So decks like Dreadnaught, Ichorid, Reanimator, all are greatly improved with scrying. The only time I would want Scrying over Crop rotation would be if there are gads of daze & pierce, but no spellsnares in a majority of the meta, which is rare. Crop rotation and Sylvan Scrying, while both being green land tutors, perform entirely different functions in the deck. Scrying only has one speed, but risks much less. Crop Rotation is usable at all stages of the game and does entirely different functions during them. It is one of the best cards in the deck. One of the most important skills in piloting this deck is baiting correctly so Crop rotate doesn't get countered, or if they do counter it, that it is a 2-for-2 exchange in the very least, preferably a 2-for-3.
Tragically Sylvan Scrying, it is completely dead against combo, only "ok" against knight/waste recursion, and a liability in a counterbalance or standstill meta. So I would not suggest it atm.
I'd just like to say that the last sideboard Rock Lee posted makes this deck nearly unbeatable vs combo and reanimator. With it, I've only lost about 1 out of 15 matches vs TES and about the same ratio vs reanimator post-board.
I've been doing really well with the deck but got stomped the other day when I ran into a mono-white Parfait build. Just couldn't do anything vs a resolved scepter-chant. Any game he didn't resolve it I just ran over him but once it resolved it became a pain to deal with. After testing a bit vs the deck, we came to the conclusion that it all comes down to setting up an instant speed devastation tide / mastery if you manage to get top out before or holding on to your countermagic for the big turn.
Good to hear. The sideboard is 100% combo. It has really odd multipurpose usages outside of combo, namely the flusterstorms coming in against really odd matchups like Maverick, Chasm coming in against something trying to race you like RUG.
About Scepter-Chant, if you really think that scepter-chant is dangerous, you can swap the 2x Cursed Totems for Krosan Grips. Remember Pithing Needle can name Isocron Scepter also.
This week I went 4-1 at the local Tuesday event. I punted my only loss super hard by THINKING I had sideboarded in bojuka bog for black hive mind mana, but not having done it, when I could have paid for 1x Pact of Titan and 2x Slaughter Pact while my opponent would have lost to non-payment.
Other than that, I faced Maverick, Burn, RBW control, and Affinity, all of which are favorable matchups and were won with relative ease.
Current list:
// Lands
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [IN] Island (1)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
// Creatures
2 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya
// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AVR] Devastation Tide
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [M10] Pithing Needle
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 2 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 1 [CMD] Bojuka Bog
How's Oracle of Mul Daya working out for you? I'd thought about including her, but it seemed that she would never last on the board long enough to make a difference.
I find that she's a great alternate to Show & Tell in the 3-4 mana range before you hardcast a Titan. If you're playing against decks running bolts/plows, just get an extra land drop out of her. With decks running less setup, she will win the game for you. Most importantly though, with decks running bolt/plow she will make them debate keeping them in against you, despite being entirely dead. A Deck running bolt HAS to race you, and preventing 3 dmg to your face by having her eat it is worth the damage every time. Neglected though, she will completely win you the game.
Basically, Oracle puts THEM in a position to lose the game without a clear superior choice, which any good card will do.
So,
In an wasteland-heavy meta, is it better to run needle + candelabra or just pass on both? I can't imagine naming anything else than wasteland against an unknown opponent with a t1 needle(if you want to slam it t1 that is)
In a wasteland heavy meta, decks are slower and often rely on their opening grip more. Especially if you get to a point where I am, where people recognize you on sight and KNOW that you are playing 12-post, or you have been scouted, or it is game 2/3, people will keep hands of Wastelands + recursion or extraction. In all these cases, Pithing needle is often your best play. Heavy Devastation Tide means you often have the opportunity to reset your early Needle choices, so don't concern yourself too much about naming "wrong" like most decks would obsess over. I frequently name my needles very aggressively with the simple thought of "I don't need this to win me the game, only to prevent me from losing it." Additionally, people will often use their wastelands for mana first with Pithing Needle naming them, instead of last. This means that when you do Tide, you won't be facing an army of wastelands before you replay the needle.
Candelabra is more a complex card choice based off a combination of how fast decks are (a mix of "how much combo" and how fast can aggro be") and how much Choke and B2B are pervasive in addition to how much Wasteland is present.
My meta breakdown is extremely healthy, with a leaning towards Maverick & Aggro Control (RUG). Both Decks are slow, but can clock you if they forgo their control elements and just zerg you. This justifies 2 Candelabra, but not a full compliment. The two most dominant archetypes would have me both siding out Force of Wills, so their maindecking is optional at the moment, but because combo exists enough to have won events, a heavy combo sideboard would be needed if this route is taken. Cavern of Souls also re-evaluates Force of Will, since Knight, Lackey & Merfolk Lords would be your only offensive Forces minus Combo wins. Lastly, Pithing needle hits nearly all the Force of Will targets (Knight, Vial), while still hitting what you effectively want to stop, Wasteland with throwins (Factory, Mutavault, Planeswalkers).
TLDR: Yes, kinda.
rock: was that you at jupiter games on saturday?
-rob
Myself and a few buds were at Jupiter Yesterday/Today. I faced some tragic draws and scrubbed, my bud Scott Hughes went undefeated in the Swiss into Top 8, but lost due to inexperience with the deck while it was handing him the win if he saw it.
But yes. I was there.
cool, were you two running identical lists?
what was the situation that he overlooked?
-rob
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