[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[thefringthing]

Some thoughts based on the last couple pages of discussion:

• Cutting Chrome Mox is sweet. Hands with two are auto-mulligans.
• Four Probes is too many. They screw up mulligans.
• I like Ill-Gotten Gains better than Past in Flames, but having no Tendrils maindeck hurts Gains a lot. Then again, I almost never have the opportunity to use Past in Flames. I think it makes more sense in ANT than in TES.
• If I didn't think Silence was important, I'd play ANT. I've tried to make an all fetch/dual/basic manabase work with four colours and you just can't do it. It would be the holy grail of lists to have a four colour storm deck with stable mana. I don't think cutting Silence is the answer.
• I haven't tried Karakas at all. It seems interesting, but I think Ethersworn Canonist is real.
• Having an Infernal Tutor in the sideboard is good only in decks with Cabal Ritual. Those lines need a lot more mana than this deck is designed to generate, especially if you don't have a Tendrils maindeck.

[Bryant Cook]

I played T.E.S. at a local tonight, went undefeated. The list was solid.

• As of right now I only own one Karakas so the Ill-Gotten Gains was still in my sideboard. Never used it though.
• I played against blue decks every round.
• Past in Flames was used twice.
• No deck had an answer to 10+ goblins.
• Silence was good.

[entreri_fans]

Hi, I am the man playing ANT for some time, and I apologize if this question is noobish.

I find that currently, TES players tend to run only 1 Ad Nauseam main deck instead of 2, like they always did in the past.

But if so(only 1 AdN main deck),you still run 4 chrome mox??

Because in my ANT list, I run 2 chrome mox, but still find it's awful sometimes that I will draw double mox in my opening hand and need mulligan.

I awalys thought "4 chrome mox" is the good decision only if you are so Ad Nauseam-Dependent and really need 2 Ad Nauseam in you deck.


Am I wrong?

[Bryant Cook]

Hi, I am the man playing ANT for some time, and I apologize if this question is noobish.

I find that currently, TES players tend to run only 1 Ad Nauseam main deck instead of 2, like they always did in the past.

But if so(only 1 AdN main deck),you still run 4 chrome mox??

Because in my ANT list, I run 2 chrome mox, but still find it's awful sometimes that I will draw double mox in my opening hand and need mulligan.

I awalys thought "4 chrome mox" is the good decision only if you are so Ad Nauseam-Dependent and really need 2 Ad Nauseam in you deck.


Am I wrong?

The current list only plays three. It's still in a testing phase so I haven't made changes to the opening post.

1 Ad Nauseam in the deck doesn't make it any less of an Ad Nauseam deck, it just makes it less likely to die to your own spell.

[Tombstalker]

The current list only plays three. It's still in a testing phase so I haven't made changes to the opening post.

1 Ad Nauseam in the deck doesn't make it any less of an Ad Nauseam deck, it just makes it less likely to die to your own spell.

This is true. A second ad naus doesnt increase your chances of drawing it significantly in comparison with the chances of flipping the 2nd one off the first. Not worth it IMO unless you play UB ANT. I also question the need for more than 2 mox though. Obviously bryant is the expert with this deck though.

Recently ive taken pages from both TES and ANT for a 3 colored list with no maindeck PiF/IGG but 1 each of EtW and tendrils main and im loving it. You guys here are really onto something with EtW main and alongside tendrils main the deck can grind while still being explosive as hell. I think probe + EtW has largely made alternate engines obsolete, at least for the time being. Still worthwhile to have 1, maybe 2 in the board for corner cases though.

[beebles]

Eh I got crushed at the open. I went 3-1 the night before at a mini tourney (my first tournamennt ever with the deck) which gave me a false sense of security. I actually beat countertop which had me feeling like a boss, only losing to Maverick when I panicked mid combo when I duressed him and saw a Stoneforge mystic which made me realize 12 goblins probably woudn't even kill him so I just diminished returned for garbage and died. Whoops.

In the open I played against RUG made 14 goblins on turn 3 and still lost because he had two flipped delvers and a hand full of burn uggh. Game 2 he had stifle, Rough/tumble 2 forces and a spell pierce in his hand when I duressed him. Yippee. Despite all that I still went off after I hit him with 2 more discard spells and then died when my ad nauseam failed to yield me any Silences so I couldn't play around stifle and then died.

The next round I lost two the most horrifying deck ever--a veteran explorer bug deck which had both therapies and Force of Wills. Uggh. I think I had 2 cards in my hand on turn 2. Horay for getting therapied over and over and over gain. Next game I went for 10 goblins on the play and got my burning wish forced. Ugghhh.

I then beat the crap out of a goblin player to rebuilt my shattered self esteem. Oh well I will keep at it and get better. I think the deck really is strong if you don't run into a buzzsaw of hate like I did.

I did really like the Ill gotten gains and beat the goblin players by boarding it into the main a plan which really seemed strong. I cut past in flames after the 4 round tourney because I can't figure out why you would ever want it. I boarded out 1 mox almost every round but I think any more than than that you might have trouble going off when you ad nauseam. You need moxes and petals to cast those rituals man. This was my final list.

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
4 Silence
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 LED
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils

4 Gemstone
2 City
4 Fetch
2 Sea
1 Volcanic

SB
1 Tendrils
1 EtW
1 Grapeshot
1 Karakas
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Deathmark
1 Shattering Spree
1 Ill gotten gains
2 Inqisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Diminishing Returns

[Final Fortune]

Anybody have any thoughts on whether or not it's worth cutting the 4th Ponder for the 4th Gitaxian Probe at all? I've had pretty mixed results myself, as Ponder makes so many hands more keepable than Gitaxian Probe does.

As far as the SB, I don't think you really need Ill Gotten Gains, Past in Flames or Grape Shot, I've been winning almost all of my games with either Empty the Warrens or Diminishing Returns reliably, altho' I think Sneak/Shows move to cards like Overmaster and Defense Grid instead of Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm plays a really huge roll in the matter.

I'm pretty sure Grape Shot is just kind of a wasted slot in the SB, it was ok when Gaddok Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist were the hate bears of choice, but now with Thalia it feels pretty much impossible to Burning Wish for 3, play a card for Storm (minimum of 1) and Grape Shot for 3.

Another SB slot I don't think really makes any sense is Death Mark, every creature we need to kill with Death Mark we can kill with Chain Lightning as well, and the 3 damage may actually come in handy. I've been thinking a lot about whether or not it'd be better to SB multiple Chain Lightning the same way some people SB multiple Death Marks, just because it's a more functional card that can contribute to killing your opponent while not being dead vs aggro when they don't draw their hate bears. I guess Death Mark isn't technically dead either when they don't draw their hate bears, but it's better to be able to throw 3 damage to the opponent's head as an additional option than just killing a creature. I also think Chain Lightning being red could be pretty significant, just because if we cast Burning Wish then we know we already have access to that color.

My SB is something like,

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Chain Lightning
1 Shattering Spree
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm

and I feel like I have a ton of space to mess around with extras.

[Matt]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, I've only used Grapeshot once in the 6+ months I've been playing T.E.S. (EtW would have been enough anyway). I'm going to test a Chant or something to deal with blue in that slot...

[Dark Ritual]

Played in a local a few days ago, and scrubbed out hard. Got one win against GBW goodstuff, but that matchup is easy. Lost to lands packing thalia postboard along with thorn of amethyst and of course raw drawing triple waste without any loam to speak of. The match was incredibly close, however he landed the thalia after I tutored for ad nauseam and I had exactly 5 mana in play. Drew a land off the top, he beat me down to 10 though with factory and thalia. I EoT'ed ad nauseamed, not finding a chain of vapor or e. truth but I did find burning wish. However, my only out to thalia in my wishboard was a grapeshot. 6 mana to answer thalia was too much and I was at 1 life so I died to factory. Game 1 I regretted my decision to not play past in flames in my board, as he was at virtually 30 life due to zuran orb + 5 lands in play and I couldn't generate enough storm to win and ad nauseam wasn't an option as he locked me out a long time ago and I didn't draw an IMS for quite awhile, allowing him to beat with creeping tar pit for a lot. Also drew the 1 of ad nauseam when I was locked out, and proceeded to draw lots of LED's to go with the infernal tutor in my hand. Also lost to canadian thresh, game 1 I had 8 storm after resolving burning wish however my opponent was at 19. I went for d. returns since I was at 9 life and he had a flipped delver so any topdecked bolt wins the race for him. D. returns floating UBR failed and he managed to draw force, pierce, blue card which was enough to stop me.

Deathmark kills Iona. Chain lightning does not. Also, the copy ability of chain lightning can be relevant sometimes. As for burning people out with the card, we have a card for that. It's called grapeshot.

[Tombstalker]

I wouldnt consider cutting ponders for anything really. One less chrome mox otoh would rarely make any impact, at least not one thats measurable and mox in multiples usually sucks.

For alternatives to deathmark ive been pretty happy with silent departure. It hits hatebears and iona since my opponents almost always name black and iona in hand is better than in grave.

I agree chain lightning is worse than grapeshot since shot doubles as an alternate wincon and removal, not that I use grapeshot either. Personally ive just gone with 4 dread of night and havent looked back since. I tried all the flashy broad application cards but I prefer these especially since 2 is game.

[metalhead]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, I've only used Grapeshot once in the 6+ months I've been playing T.E.S. (EtW would have been enough anyway). I'm going to test a Chant or something to deal with blue in that slot...

Didn't I grapeshot you in St.Louis? Ok.. So its because I punted. But i still cast Grapeshot twice that day.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Didn't I grapeshot you in St.Louis? Ok.. So its because I punted. But i still cast Grapeshot twice that day.

TES wouldn't be viable without Grapeshot.

[Bryant Cook]

I wouldnt consider cutting ponders for anything really. One less chrome mox otoh would rarely make any impact, at least not one thats measurable and mox in multiples usually sucks.

For alternatives to deathmark ive been pretty happy with silent departure. It hits hatebears and iona since my opponents almost always name black and iona in hand is better than in grave.

I agree chain lightning is worse than grapeshot since shot doubles as an alternate wincon and removal, not that I use grapeshot either. Personally ive just gone with 4 dread of night and havent looked back since. I tried all the flashy broad application cards but I prefer these especially since 2 is game.

Karakas > Both Deathmark and Silent Depature.

Grapeshot > All.

[Final Fortune]

Karakas > Both Deathmark and Silent Depature.

Grapeshot > All.

How often can you actually removal a Thalia with a Grape Shot, and how often are you using Grape Shot for anything other than show boating?

I don't know if you can say Karakas is necessarily better than removal, it may be right now, but I'd be extremely concerned that you're going to see Ethersworn Cannonist reapear in the near future with all of our overly specific Thalia hate.

[Bryant Cook]

How often can you actually removal a Thalia with a Grape Shot, and how often are you using Grape Shot for anything other than show boating?

I don't know if you can say Karakas is necessarily better than removal, it may be right now, but I'd be extremely concerned that you're going to see Ethersworn Cannonist reapear in the near future with all of our overly specific Thalia hate.

I've killed Thalia plenty of times with Grapeshot. Postboard there's also Karakas, Inquisitions, and Echoing Truths to deal with Thalia/Teeg/Cannonist.

[thefringthing]

Metagame at my store is RUG/UG/UR Delver decks, fatties (Sneak Show, sometimes Hypergenesis/Omniscience/Reanimator), MUD, Merfolk, and Burn. No Maverick.

I'm going to try out the Empty the Warrens, 3 Chrome Mox maindeck with the following sideboard tonight:

2 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Grapeshot
1 Shattering Spree

[joemauer]

Metagame at my store is RUG/UG/UR Delver decks, fatties (Sneak Show, sometimes Hypergenesis/Omniscience/Reanimator), MUD, Merfolk, and Burn. No Maverick.

I'm going to try out the Empty the Warrens, 3 Chrome Mox maindeck with the following sideboard tonight:

2 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Grapeshot
1 Shattering Spree

Metagame consists of a bunch of Delver decks and you are going to cut Past in Flames? Oh noes!

[thefringthing]

I wouldn't say it's a bunch of them. Either way, I realized recently that I just never cast the card.

EDIT: Went 2-1 and made my money back. I ended up playing a fourteenth land. Lost to Reanimator, beat UB Stiflenought and Affinity. The fourteenth land was good versus multiple Wastelands. Two Gitaxian Probes seemed like plenty, but I may have just been drawing them a lot. Maindeck Empty was irrelevant. Sideboard in/out numbers were a bit awkward.

[Pelikanudo]

@Bryant:
@Bahamut:
@Emidiln:

Finally I went with no therapys, I forgot this is TES, I mean, you can have thereapy and you can simply do not know what the player has in hand and be simply a dead card, that possibility makes it not playable in base, because, you need information to be plenty of effective. chant or silence or duress or t.seize simply need to be countered.

regarding the changes to the initial list from Bryant .Post:
+1 Gitaxian = -1 C.Mox
Tendrils > E.Warrens.

Questions:
Have you tested 12 lands?
I would need to keep 4 moxen, so -1 land +1 moxen could be ok?
I've been trying 12 lands 4 moxen 4 gitaxian no tendrils no Empty main 1 A.N., and seems the correct numbers.
Have you tested Karakas in side? does it really worth it?

[Bryant Cook]

@Bryant:
@Bahamut:
@Emidiln:

Finally I went with no therapys, I forgot this is TES, I mean, you can have thereapy and you can simply do not know what the player has in hand and be simply a dead card, that possibility makes it not playable in base, because, you need information to be plenty of effective. chant or silence or duress or t.seize simply need to be countered.

regarding the changes to the initial list from Bryant .Post:
+1 Gitaxian = -1 C.Mox
Tendrils > E.Warrens.

Questions:
Have you tested 12 lands?
I would need to keep 4 moxen, so -1 land +1 moxen could be ok?
I've been trying 12 lands 4 moxen 4 gitaxian no tendrils no Empty main 1 A.N., and seems the correct numbers.
Have you tested Karakas in side? does it really worth it?

No win-condition main is awful. The deck literally loses to counterspell on Burning Wish, Surgical Extraction. Which is in the post popular deck in the format - RUG Delver/Canadian Threshold. Not to mention half of the beauty of Probes is to increase the power of Empty the Warrens which you're no longer even doing.

I still only have the one Karakas but I did do testing with a proxied second against Maverick, it was great. I've yet to do Sneak Show/Reanimator.