[Deck] Dredge

[plimplam]

This^

I would not have a Sideboard guide, but would board based on what you expect to be boarded in for GY hate and then hate for their deck itself

That's it, like a sideboard plan, but that plan can always change because of the specific hate.
But there is always not flexible people that just want to criticate.

[Fizzeler]

That's it, like a sideboard plan, but that plan can always change because of the specific hate.
But there is always not flexible people that just want to criticate.

There is always the Random hate card thrown in that you won't expect and can't prepare for, like Propaganda from the Fish deck

I usually ended up boarded in my Nether Shadows G2 against Fair Decks (especially if they had Snapcaster) as I always put them on Surgical Extraction, this worked out well for me at the open and turned out to be the right call, even if it slows down the Quadlazer list a bit it still led to some explosive turn 1s games 2 and 3

A card I am on the fence about for Sideboard is Ancient Grudge, I have yet to board it in (I am running 4 Nature's Claim) should I just swap it for another Dread Return?

[Anusien]

There is always the Random hate card thrown in that you won't expect and can't prepare for, like Propaganda from the Fish deck

I usually ended up boarded in my Nether Shadows G2 against Fair Decks (especially if they had Snapcaster) as I always put them on Surgical Extraction, this worked out well for me at the open and turned out to be the right call, even if it slows down the Quadlazer list a bit it still led to some explosive turn 1s games 2 and 3

A card I am on the fence about for Sideboard is Ancient Grudge, I have yet to board it in (I am running 4 Nature's Claim) should I just swap it for another Dread Return?

Ancient Grudge is nominally better than Nature's Claim at killing Crypts and Grudges. I am skeptical that you need that sort of effect, but if you do, you probably don't need 5 of it.

[HokusSchmokus]

Problem about Grudge is that you cannot flash it back against Cage(obv)and it is harder to play through daze. I always have 1 Grudge in my board,but I only really board it against Storm

[Izor]

Problem about Grudge is that you cannot flash it back against Cage(obv)and it is harder to play through daze. I always have 1 Grudge in my board,but I only really board it against Storm

Wouldn't you rather keep more good cards in your deck than trying to hit LEDs with Ancient Grudge? A smart Storm player is not going to fall to that trap. I boad my 1-off Grudge against Stoneblade and Crypt/Relic/Spellbomb stuff.

[TerribleTim68]

...A smart Storm player is not going to fall to that trap. ...

He'll fall when I hit him over the head with my trade binder, I know that!

[joemauer]

Wouldn't you rather keep more good cards in your deck than trying to hit LEDs with Ancient Grudge? A smart Storm player is not going to fall to that trap. I boad my 1-off Grudge against Stoneblade and Crypt/Relic/Spellbomb stuff.

A smart storm player will play out his Lion's Eye Diamonds as soon as possible to avoid them from being stripped by Cabal Therapy.

[HokusSchmokus]

Wouldn't you rather keep more good cards in your deck than trying to hit LEDs with Ancient Grudge? A smart Storm player is not going to fall to that trap. I boad my 1-off Grudge against Stoneblade and Crypt/Relic/Spellbomb stuff.

It's only -1 Ichorid +1 Ancient Grudge.
And as Joemauer said,a smart stormplayer will most likely fall to that trap because he will play out LED as soon as he draws them.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Hi guys,

finally my article / tournament report from GP Ghent got published. I played Quadlaser Dredge to a 37th place finish. Here's the article:

www.eternal-central.com/?p=2931

Regards,

Erik

[Fizzeler]

Hi guys,

finally my article / tournament report from GP Ghent got published. I played Quadlaser Dredge to a 37th place finish. Here's the article:

www.eternal-central.com/?p=2931

Regards,

Erik

Nice job, Hypergenesis sounds rough man :/

Good job beating Maverick though

[Final Fortune]

I'm consistently winning all of my game 1s with only 2 MD Ichorid right now, does anybody else want to test this to make certain I'm not just completely luck sacking my games? I've ran into a few problems vs Goblins playing 4xMogg Fanatic and removing my bridges, but Ichorid beat down doesn't really seem to be the key element in killing my opponent as opposed to just mind twisting him, generating tokens and using the Ichorids to keep generating tokens or adding in a lightning bolt here or there.

Do we basically just win the game with Cabal Therapy and Bridge from Below?

[mort-]

I'm consistently winning all of my game 1s with only 2 MD Ichorid right now, does anybody else want to test this to make certain I'm not just completely luck sacking my games? I've ran into a few problems vs Goblins playing 4xMogg Fanatic and removing my bridges, but Ichorid beat down doesn't really seem to be the key element in killing my opponent as opposed to just mind twisting him, generating tokens and using the Ichorids to keep generating tokens or adding in a lightning bolt here or there.

Do we basically just win the game with Cabal Therapy and Bridge from Below?

I tested two Ichorids too, but I didn't like it very much. Adding a third one did wonders for me :)

[sperry023]

Won an 8-man last night at my FLGS running Quadlaser... it was my third Legacy tournament ever and my first since last summer with non-LED Dredge. Granted, the competition was not tough; my first and third rounds were against janky Reanimator builds. I also saw High Tide, Kobold-Combo, and non-LED Dredge. Essentially, players win by vomiting on the table and taking over before their opponent's out-play them.

Round 2 was against BUG and he was actually good. Still, sometimes you just go Turn 1 land, LED, Breakthrough and there's nothing they can do. Game 2 was really grindy, but in the end the Ashen Ghoul plan prevailed, getting him by exactsies with a few Narcomoebas, Zombies, and a Ghoul with exactly three creatures above it against two Goyfs. He Snapcaster-Extirpated my Ichorids and Trolls mid-game, but it wasn't enough.

I lost game 2 against my last Reanimator opponent because of a MD Blazing Archon. Situations like this really make me look back at DR packages, at least in the side.

[Claymore-One]

Hey fellow sourcers,

I recently just got back from an 8 month deployment. There's so many threads and posts around, that I don't think I can catch on. I used to be able to keep up with the posts and stuff, but not this time. Anyway, what match ups has changed since this past 8 months? What new threats to watch out for, what hate if any has changed, new decks, and how to go on handling such? Any new possible DR targets as well or perhaps card draws that may have changed over this past 8 months?

I regularly play with the 15 land ghastless build, with 2 dread returns, and 1 singleton DR target and 3 tribes.

Many thanks ahead of time.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So I am going to try my luck at SCG Denver. Here is a list I am debating on playing. It's between this and a UW countertop build. I mainly have questions about my sideboard, but if you see something in the maindeck that you think is questionable, I am open to ideas.

List:
4 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Dakmor Salvage

4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study
1 Deep Analysis

2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below

Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Gravecrawler
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
1Terestadon
1 Angel of Despair
1 Eternal Witness

I've been playing dredge since it first became a Deck to Beat, but it's been off and on. I'm a pretty decent pilot, and like to have a well-rounded list as opposed to something like Quadlazer (Please don't suggest it, I've tried it and I hate it).

First, I haven't had an opportunity to test the 'crawlers because there's nothing in my local metagame that I need to grind out against; are they a fairly still a solid strategy with only 11 lands, 3 of which kill themselves, 3 that don't tap for black mana, and 1 that CIPT? I know I don't have removal other than the grudges in the board, but I really don't know what to do. I like flayer, it makes every control matchup a breeze. All I have to do is resolve a Dread Return and I have it (StP should obv be stripped from their hand first).

I am actually really wanting 2 Street Wraiths in the 75 somewhere to combat Extraction.

Anyway, I need the help fine-tuning it. Thanks for the help, will check back tonight to respond to any discussion.

--ABC

I have every card imaginable for ichorid dredge, don't hesitate to mention any card, I have it.

[joemauer]

So.....
Random Jargon

I see some problems with your list here.

Firstly the lands should be twelve lands at the least. I would cut deep anal for your other land. Most times you pop LED will be for red so deep anal will rarely be cast. Replace Dakmor Salvage with a better land, it is a bad dredger and a bad land. You want City, Gemstone Mine, and Cephalid all as four ofs.

Secondly the Dread Return package. If you want a Dread Return package I would run Dread Return x3 + Grizzilbrand + Flayer. I would cut the fourth Ichorid for the third Dread Return. Adding Flayer will free up spots in your sideboard and Grisselbrand will help you combo more often. Elesh seems like it should be in your sideboard unless your Meta is nothing but tribal.

Finally the sideboard. You have way too many Dread Return targets in there. Stick with Elesh, Angel of Despair, and perhaps a second Grizzlebrand or maybe Iona. Three should be plenty. Also, is there any reason you have no way to kill enchantments?

I haven't personally tested Gravecrawler but the general consesus with him is Ashen Ghoul is better.

[Fizzeler]

Hey fellow sourcers,

I recently just got back from an 8 month deployment. There's so many threads and posts around, that I don't think I can catch on. I used to be able to keep up with the posts and stuff, but not this time. Anyway, what match ups has changed since this past 8 months? What new threats to watch out for, what hate if any has changed, new decks, and how to go on handling such? Any new possible DR targets as well or perhaps card draws that may have changed over this past 8 months?

I regularly play with the 15 land ghastless build, with 2 dread returns, and 1 singleton DR target and 3 tribes.

Many thanks ahead of time.

the new hate is Grafdigger's Cage and Surgical Extraction, while the former is easy to deal with via Nature's Claims the latter requires more resilient builds or they could simply Extract your recurable creatures and shut you out of the game

Faithless Looting has shifted Dredge into more LED builds and the 4 of Quadlazer build, which is a build with 4 of almost everything (Therapies, Studies, Lootings, LEDs, Mines, Cities, Coliseums, Breakthroughs, Ichorids, Dredgers) and no Dread Returns

Another interesting plan has been the Painter's Servant board plan, while interesting I still don't think it is viable

In other news played at a local Legacy event yesterday went 2-0 then split the finals (after which we played it out and he beat me 2-1), it was my friend/playtester in the finals on Death And Taxes, game 1 got shut out by Thalia, game 2 barely killed him, and game 3 could not go off through Thalia and Relic so lost

All other games I won 2-0 in the tourney against Nic Fit and CounterTop

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I see some problems with your list here.

Firstly the lands should be twelve lands at the least. I would cut deep anal for your other land. Most times you pop LED will be for red so deep anal will rarely be cast. Replace Dakmor Salvage with a better land, it is a bad dredger and a bad land. You want City, Gemstone Mine, and Cephalid all as four ofs.

Secondly the Dread Return package. If you want a Dread Return package I would run Dread Return x3 + Grizzilbrand + Flayer. I would cut the fourth Ichorid for the third Dread Return. Adding Flayer will free up spots in your sideboard and Grisselbrand will help you combo more often. Elesh seems like it should be in your sideboard unless your Meta is nothing but tribal.

Finally the sideboard. You have way too many Dread Return targets in there. Stick with Elesh, Angel of Despair, and perhaps a second Grizzlebrand or maybe Iona. Three should be plenty. Also, is there any reason you have no way to kill enchantments?

I haven't personally tested Gravecrawler but the general consesus with him is Ashen Ghoul is better.

I guess I'm trying to go a more dread return oriented list. Here is my mindset -- Narcomoeba, Ichorid, and post-sideboard, its nice to be able to cast a dread return to make anywhere from 6 to 12 zombies from the Flashback sacrifice cost. Even without it resolving, you have accomplished something, which is accumulating an undead army quickly, along with recursion each turn from there on out. It's another sacrifice outlet essentially, and if it does resolve, Elesh Norn is insane with both Ichorid and co., but is also a wonderful utility creature killer. If you can get her out, she wins games. Then, FKZ is still really good. Against control, I board in 2 Flayers, and would even like a 3rd Dread Return in the SB for the control matchup. It's awesome 2nd main phase dread returning one and then killing it with a Therapy to deal a ton of mana without having to rely on being able to attack with an army or with recursion beats.

More choice evals to come. What's another option for a 12th land, and why do ya play Tarnished Citadel/Undiscovered Paradise over Forbidden Orchard?

I gotta go to bed. L8.

--ABC

[joemauer]

Forbidden Orchard is bad because Ichorid and Bridge from Below are the way the deck wins. Giving opponents tokens causes problems.

[Mindlash]

I guess I'm trying to go a more dread return oriented list. Here is my mindset -- Narcomoeba, Ichorid, and post-sideboard, its nice to be able to cast a dread return to make anywhere from 6 to 12 zombies from the Flashback sacrifice cost. Even without it resolving, you have accomplished something, which is accumulating an undead army quickly, along with recursion each turn from there on out. It's another sacrifice outlet essentially, and if it does resolve, Elesh Norn is insane with both Ichorid and co., but is also a wonderful utility creature killer. If you can get her out, she wins games. Then, FKZ is still really good. Against control, I board in 2 Flayers, and would even like a 3rd Dread Return in the SB for the control matchup. It's awesome 2nd main phase dread returning one and then killing it with a Therapy to deal a ton of mana without having to rely on being able to attack with an army or with recursion beats.

More choice evals to come. What's another option for a 12th land, and why do ya play Tarnished Citadel/Undiscovered Paradise over Forbidden Orchard?

I gotta go to bed. L8.

--ABC

The first 12 Lands should be City of Brass, Gemstone Mine, Cephalid Coliseum, because they have the smallest drawbacks.

I do not like Dakmor Salvage because you do often need other colors of mana. Out of my mind you could only cast PImp, Thug and "hardcast" Therapy with it. I would only play Salvage in a list with Bloodghast.

If you need more lands I would use a mix of Undiscovered Paradise and Tarnished Citadel. I favor Citadel because it makes it easier to activate Coliseum and can help against Daze more reliably.

Another Land I have seen in Dredge is Forsaken City. I have seen in only once in a list from Parcher. I have never tested it myself.

Forbidden Orchard gives your Opponent a free chump blocker to get rid of your bridges which I like a lot less then losing 3 life due to Citadel.

If I would be using Dread Return I would probably use 3 DR, 1 Grisel, 1 FKZ with 1 Elesh, 1 Flayer, 1 Angel of Despair in the Board. Perhaps I would switch FKZ and Elesh and/or cut FKZ at all. But its a personal choice...I just do not like FKZ :-/

In regards
Chris

Edit:
I would also cut Deep Analysis. 4 Study/Looting are so much better. Study is easier to cast due to Coliseum and Looting is a lot better then Deep Analysis. This card just makes the Deck more unconsistent.

You should also get something like Nature's Claim or Chains of Vapor into your SB to have the opportunity to fight Leyline/Cage. I usually have 1 Grudge in my board against some matchups but I did not use it against Cage (cast from hand) ever.

I also find Ashen Ghoul more reliable in fighting Surgical. Its conditions are easier met then Gravecrawlers. 10 Rainbowmana should be the lowest count to use them reliably. I use 11 Rainbowlands postboard and enough. 8 Rainbowmana may be a bit low with Gemstone blowing up after some uses.

Iona may be worth a try and I would also use Terastodon or Angel of Despair. Not both.