Iv been thinking about picking up Dredge again.
I played a lot of LEDless as well as LED Dredge. I always liked LEDless better. I relize it may not be the best call for the current meta but its just the way I prefer Dredge.
I do like the edition of faithless looting. I feel like if I make a LEDless build I would want to some how include Faithless Looting,but is it really worth it without LED? Probably not.
I don't know,I don't know what I'm gonna do. There has to be a compromise.
It's worth it even without LED. You can play grindy games with tribe, or be faster with looting.
I'm playing LEDless with looting currently, and it's pretty consistent on making tons of tokens turn 2/3.
It seems to me tgat you overvoard against the control matchup. I'd rather add other recursive threats G2 against control. Hardcasting DR isn't realistic(exspecially with under 15 lands) and DR is particularly bad against control(if they are smart/don't drawOriginally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
shitty a DR is pretty hard to set up imo)
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
Meh, never mind. I think I'm just going to go quadlazer. I hate it, but it's posting results. Can't beat'em, join them...
I've boarded out dread return in literally every match I've played these past few weeks. The extra Ichorid and respective food is absolutely invaluable.
Are you playing LED less because you don't own LEDs? Or do you prefer it?
Did you cut Breakthrough for Looting?
What do your #s look like?
I've been doing some testing for legacy champs at gencon with led less dredge, I've been really happy with it despite owning the led's, I'm currently 85% on playing it. I stared with led quad laser cut led for tarnished citadel and an Ichorid for a singleton dread return.
LED Dredge is strictly better than LEDless at this point. It's extremely consistent, and the speed is worth it. Before Faithless Looting, I strongly preferred LEDless, but not anymore. LEDless is a fine budget version of the deck at this point.
peace,
4eak
Just replace 4 Lion's Eye Diamonds for 4 Tarnished Citadels in Quad Lazer, there's an argument for cutting 1 Golgari Thug, 1 Tarnished Citadel and 1 Ichorid for 3 Tireless Tribe IMO. It's not as "optimal" mulligan wise, but it's far more resistent to counter spells and Tormod's Crypts and usually ensures you can discard your entire hand instead of getting in ugly situations where you have to open with a Careful Study in order to start dredging with your second draw spell or Cephalid Coliseum (you get royally fucked by Spell Pierce in these scenarious fwiw).
@thread
Yeah, Dread Return packages are garbage IMO, because you're playing 4 more MD slots that you have to SB out vs hate or you're losing serious SB space in order to board in; Ashen Ghouls, Tarnished Citadels and Putrid Imps in order to converge into your post-board configuration. I don't think they add meaningfully enough to your win percentage in order to justify losing hate cards or answers to hate cards in your SB.
First of all i agree that Maindeck packages are garbage but I think a single Elesh Norn is worth playing it in in the SB. It improves your matchup vs Rug, Maverick and Tribals. Maverick is one of the worst Matchups out there, if you arent able to blow them out on turn 2-3.
It is possible to play one DR in the Maindeck and one DR and Elesh in the SB. Because of this "tech" I prefer to play nether shadows over ashen ghouls. They come in for free specially vs Rug. Besides that, there is another reason: I often stuck on returning ashen gouls because i didnt have a land.
After all i came to the following list:
MD
3 Ichorid
1 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Putrid Imp
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
2 Tarnished Citadel
SB
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature’s Claim
3 Nether Shadow
1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn
I added a second Grudge because my meta is stoneblade Heavy, if there are many SneakShow-Players it could be an Angel of Dispair. Otherwise there would be room for an Ingot Chewer, Ray of Revelation or other good Stuff.
Regards,
Homason
If you hate it, don't play it. There are plenty of other good lists. Check out the lists from Hollywood for example. If you play DR + target just don't play cute stuff like FKZ, play targets that always do something like Elesh or Sun Titan imo. You can definately play a competitive list with DR, just make sure you get some input for your MD, because the list you posted was lacking quite a bit imo(no offense). I haven't touched my DRs in quite a while, but I am sure that some of the others can help.
Edit: i just noticed...is Stoneblade still a deck? I cannot remember playing against it for like forever, but it seems that some others run into it regularly...oh how I envy you...:(
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
If you play a Dread Return package, I think 2xDread Return, 2xGrislebrand is probably the best one, because Griselbrand pretty much does everything you could ask and the second Dread Return can always target a Golgari Grave Troll.
I really don't think relying on Dread Return + targets post-board is viable vs hate, you need regular guys like Ichorid and Ashen Ghoul to trigger activations.
@4reak
I don't think LED Dredge is strictly better than LEDless Dredge, because the latter is more consistent and has a higher win rate vs. aggro-control, control etc. fwiw. It's just that without LED we're definitely at a loss vs stuff like Storm and Reanimator that we can no longer race.
I could go either way honestly, as long as you're playing 4 Faithless Looting you're pretty much doing it right, lands vs LEDs has its trade offs.
I play LEDless because I don't own LEDs. Breakthrough is amazing, don't cut it. My list is like Final Fortune said: Quadlazer trading LED for Tarnished Citadel, and one Ichorid for a Darkblast (could be memory's journey, DR, etc).
LEDless would be better than LED dredge with a relevant DR target, but when I try this it become less consistent.
This is my current list. Its basically a Quad-Lazer list but modified to include the explosive power of Dread Return.
4 Putrid Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
1 Dread Return
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Dread Return
3 Ashen Ghoul
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ichorid
1 Angel of Despair
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
What are your thoughts? I'm thinking this is a good balance between the consistency of Quad-lazer and the power of Dread Return lists.
I've played the same main deck as you, -1 Golgari Thug for +1 Dark Blast, so I can say your MD is viable but your SB is not. You're really not going to get any meaningful utility out of a 2nd Dread Return and 3 Dread Return targets in your SB. You need to SB cards that you can rely on vs. hate, not SB cards that win more when you're uncontested by your opponent.
Okay, I guess I need some schooling. Can someone educate me on the fine art of "slow dredging"? How do I know when to draw, how do I know how much dredging to do, how do I know how much to draw, etc. My experience with this deck is that it straight rolls just about everything game one, but when the crypts, extractions and so on come in I tend to have no game.
Also, my meta tends to be rather "blue". What's the money cards for the sb against them? I'm running a DR package too.
The deck is designed well to fight blue. Just pack 13-14 lands, don't use DR, and you're good. They will want to stop: Putrid Imp, Careful Study, Faithless Looting, LED, and Breakthrough. All the while, you also have Therapy to clear the path. It's not the worst match up.
The "money" sb cards against them are more lands and Ashen Ghoul.
That all sounds great, but when facing both Crypt and Extraction how do you stay in the game? Even when I boarded in the Ghouls it wasn't really a contest.
I guess I just don't understand "how to play" against that match.
For being afraid of those painful times, where I'm not sure what the best decision is I use 2 Memory's Journey. That card was discussed sometime ago with some fierce arguments by those who like and who dislike it.
Anyway I like the card as it can save my ass (3 cards sometimes means 3 Bridges or any combination of DDD, that you may need soon or later), and it's flexible in the mirror, also vs Reanimator!
Yea, you know I tried Memory's Journey. I wasn't super thrilled with it. But then again, I may not know how to use it best.
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